There has been alot of hype lately about Stephane Dion's proposal to impliment a carbon tax in Canada. Basically a tax placed on products who's use or production emits alot of carbon into the atmoshpere. (gasoline, plastics, natural gas etc.) He has stated that the increased tax on these products would be balanced by decreased taxes in other areas such as income taxes. The conservatives, however, have called this a trick.

I personally agree with a carbon tax. People aren't going to do stuff to help the environment unless they are given an incentive. A carbon tax gives us the option to either continue using lots of carbon and have our taxes raised, or lower our use of carbon and have our taxes lowered. Carbon taxes are already in-place in most of europe, and though their gasoline costs much more than ours, their economies have been less affected by it because they have more effecient lifestyles and more "green" jobs and technology.

Opinions?

I'm also in favour of the Carbon Tax because of the incentives, and quite frankly it's not as bad as the Harper Clan or the partisan hacks on the Globe and Mail and other news sites are making it out to be.

I can't tell yet whether it was an error or a calculated move to wait for the conservatives to release their attack ads, because honestly Uncle Stephen is looking a tad silly because of them now.

I disagree with the carbon tax.

Lets take this as an example, people who buy cars which emits lots of CO2 (which is probably an expensive car) wont care about paying taxes.

We need to make a major change for saving the environment, In germany they are planning to start building Hydrogen stations and build hydrogen cars.

Look at Google for another example, Google built a large solar power system in their campus and they started to use it.

The world needs such solutions to save the environment not taxes !

Hydrogen requires electricty to create, and if that electricity is generated from coal, then hydrogen cars and hydrogen generating stations are useless in preventing CO2 emissions. Even if you use say wind power to create hydrogen, why not just take the electricty and use it to directly power an electric care. Every time the form of energy is changed, im pretty sure energy is lost (thats some physics law isn't it :S)

And the thing is, there needs to be encouragement for initiatives like the ones you just mentioned to happen. People aren't just gonna start buying electric cars and installing solar panels unless it is made so that it actually saves them money.

I think it being called a new tax is false, because it simply shifts taxes from one place to another. Some candians will pay more taxes and some canadians will pay less. Overal, however, the government will still be collecting the same total amount as they did before the carbon "tax" was implemented.

You do bring up a good point though. For some people having a new tax on carbon will not be enough to make them change there habits at all. For the majority of polluting canadians, however, I dont think that this is the case and I think with this tax, everyday people, not only corperations, will actually start to take action to reduce their carbon footprint.

This tax is a great idea... definitely a step in the right direction! I am also in support of taxes on plastic bags that have been proposed in various cities/countries around the world. In fact, some cities have banned the plastic bag completely such as San Francisco... I wonder when we will get that type of thing here.


However, on a depressing note, you should really read these articles:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...ned-lakes.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...rt-enviro.html

They are quite disheartening.

Well, the major pollutants are airplanes and cars.

If we put taxes on CO2 emission, people will still travel with airplanes, because its the only way to transport quickly, and you cant use solar power with airplanes !

Now about the cars, they are making electric cars which are rubbish!!! most people doesnt like a car with no sound at all, and these cars maximum can go like 5 hours ? and then you need to charge them for about 10 hours !

As Steve Jobs (CEO of Apple) said in D5 Interview, You cant make cars which can be controlled with joysticks because people like the steering wheel! using electricity or solar power for the car is like using a joystick instead a steering wheel.

Hydrogen is the only solution because it replaces the petrol. It works about the same way as petrol but produces only water.

Solar energy can be used to produce hydrogen. It cant be used for a car directly because it needs alot of space, so the only way is to use the empty spaces on earth to build solar panels which will be used to produce hydrogen and this hydrogen will be used with cars and airplanes.

I would have to disagree. I really dont think the fact that eletric cars are quiet is going to prevent people from buying them. And yes, electric cars do take alot longer to charge than the driving time you get out of them, but look up the new Chevrolet Volt. It can get 40 miles per one-night charge, and the average person only drives 33 miles in one day. The Volt also comes with a gasoline generator that can potentially incerase its range up to 640 miles.

Though airplanes are by far the least effecient method of travel, they only make up a very small fraction of total CO2 emmisions. And you dont have make solar powered airplanes to reduce air-travels total CO2 output....you just have to increase the cost of flights so less people fly, something the carbon tax would do.

I see you are really optimistic about the idea of hydrogen. Ill buy that. It is a very interesting emerging field. However, I dont see how a carbon tax in any way goes against hydrogen technology. Having a carbon tax would actually increase the incentive for research and investment into hydrogen technolgy.

I didnt say carbon tax goes against hydrogen technology but it will have many other problems.

check this chart
http://www.mongabay.com/images/2006/...ector_2004.jpg

Carbon tax wont decrease CO2 emissions of residential sector (which is 20.5%)

For the commercial and industrial sectors, carbon tax will increase the prices (which are already shooting because of oil) and this would affect the economy in a bad way. It will even lead to unemployment as companies will employ less people for more profit of course.

what do you think ?

Actually, the carbon tax is to be used on industrial, commercial, and residential but not transportation. There is already a heavy tax on gasoline, so Dion wants to move the tax onto other carbon producers such as electrcity in homes produced by coal plants, or gas heating etc,

I agree that the cost of the tax will be moved onto certain products, but the tax will be revenue neutral, so for any increase in price created the tax, it will be offset by reductions in income taxes.

Like I said before, this tax will negatively effect some people. Prices on products that create alot of carbon in their production will go up. But again, people have the ability to lower there consumption of these products and hence reduce there overall taxes.

The carbon tax essentially gives people the choice: They can pay high taxes and help destroy the environment, or pay lower taxes and help the environment. I think its a pretty easy choice, and I think it should be offered to canadians.

this tax means CHANGE... im sick and tired of being a part of the problem... at least with this tax initiative we can finally start to be a part of the solution! Oh btw, BC's own provincal carbon tax plan takes effect starting July 1st!

Haha. Check out what Stephen Harper has to say about the Carbon tax: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...er-carbon.html

My favourite part of this is actually Harper's response, and the fact that he hasn't, nor will he, present an alternative to Dion's model.

I think this is an overall bad idea on part of the liberals, and the good thing is i think most Canadians have realized it. The high price of oil has already started to reduce peoples consumption of gas, more people are taking public transit making smarter choices about vehicles.
Its interesting also how they are going to tax natural gas, it seems rediculous to me, are we supposed to stop heating our houses to avoid paying the higher price of natural gas.
And the biggest thing of all, can you really believe that they will actually reduce our income taxes. The last thing a government wants to do, especially a liberal one is reduce taxes. The liberals back in the early 90s said they were going to get rid of the GST when the tories introduced but they never did, then they didnt support its reduction in the past few years.
The european union has had a carbon tax in place, however it has done nothing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions instead they have increased. Not a great track record for this whole plan. BC is instituting a carbon tax starting in July and they are already sending out checks because they know people are not going to be able to cope with the increase in prices and they are not in favour of the idea any more.

Well thats my rant, and another important thing, basic economics, more taxes during an economic downturn such as now will not help jump start our economy just make it less competitive on the world market as they have to charge higher prices to pay for the tax which will especially hurt the manufacturing industry in ontario, not only the oil and gas industry in alberta/newfoundland.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are right. That the liberal ideology inherently wants to raise taxes and break promises. Lets say, for the sake of agrument, that Dion's tax plan, for whatever reason, will not be revenue neutral.

Even if this were true, I would still support the carbon tax. The entire world needs some tough love. We are running out of hydrocarbons, and one way or another we will have to wean ourselves off of them. I personally would rather start to do it now rather than wait till we have no more oil and everyone starts to panic. Not to mention, the short term economic losses would be pale in comparison to the global climate catastrophy that awaits us if we continue to do nothing. You know that record flooding going on in Iowa? That is going to shoot the price of corn and wheat up more than any tax could.

Ontario's manufacturing secture is dead if it continues going the way it is now. What it neads is innovation and technology that will make it once again competitive with foreing producers. A carbon tax will do this, and it will shift jobs in ontario...maybe GM and ford will start producing smaller cars here, maybe we'll start to build more nuclear plants and wind turbines....these are jobs that, unlike the current manufacturing jobs, will be stable, well paying, and competitive in the current and future global market.

Also....a little bit about Europe. They actually had a much harder challenge meeting their Kyoto targets than Canada. Europe was very effecient before Kyoto, and it was therefore hard to reduce their emmisssions any lower. One of the way they did it however, was with carbon taxes.


And lets not forget about Sweden, Norway and Finland. They were the first countries in the world to impliment a carbon tax, and they all have booming economies and have very high qualities of life.

Stephane Dion has once again shocked me. The recent Carbon Tax he has proposed not only contravenes his own policies but also highlights that he is not worried about Canadians at all. Although I must commend him on his attempt at making Canada a more environmentally friendly place to live, the ways in which he hopes to attain this are all terrible ideas, which hurt all Canadians.

Although it is claimed that the tax shift is neutral, and it helps lower income people out, this is not true. With these taxes energy, and natural gas prices will sky rocket to compensate for the amount of tax on them, which will effect citizens, not necessarily by increasing their own personal energy bills, but increase the bills of businesses of all sizes increasing the cost of food, clothing, necessities, and much much more. So ultimately you will not only be paying for the increase in your energy costs, but the increase in everyone’s energy cost.

One must also be wary of implementing a tax shift like this, then expecting a future Liberal government to lower the income tax. The last time they promised to lower a tax they didn’t and we were stuck with the GST for a long time, until the Conservatives actually did what they said they were going to do and dropped it to 5%. Lets not get fooled again by empty promises and nice sounding ideas which will do nothing for the environment or Canadians.

Obviously creating a greener environment for everyone is a goal the government and all individuals should work for, but what Dion is suggesting is not the way. We should be investing in greener technology, offering incentives to companies which operate greener, and rewarding individuals for making choices such as buying a hybrid car or buying energy efficient appliances. This will open up a strong green market, and allow people to feel good about their decisions and actions.

Great debate guys.

Though it doesn't matter, because Dion will never be elected Prime Minister, the carbon tax plan is flawed from start to finish.

While very few may drive slightly less due to higher gas prices (they're called the poor, who apparently the Liberals don't care about), most will simply be forced to take part in the tax "shift": shifting their hard-earned money from their pockets to the government, who will use it to create more bureaucracy. I'm curious as to what social programs Canada is lacking...I assume Dion believes cradle to grave welfare is not good enough.

As for the revenue neutrality of the carbon tax plan: you don't have to be the devil's advocate to argue that it will never be revenue neutral. No tax ever has been. No tax ever will.