You keep saying that you are students and yet you want to be treated as people outside academia who have real jobs and careers...

Originally Posted by talues

1. A TA position is used to supplant our other scholarships and income. It is a major portion of our funding. While we only (or are supposed to) TA 10 hours a week (Many of us TA much more than this), we spend a minimum 40 hours, and in many cases many more, working on research or doing academic related activities. It is not the fact that I am getting a raise of X amount in my hourly wage, it is the fact that due to the tuition increase we are losing money.

...

3. I never said undergrads got it easy. Not once. We were all undergrads once, and many of us still carry debt from undergrad. Some of us cannot get any more loans especially if we lack a co-signer. It is also not feasible for us to pick up another part-time job in many cases, we just don't have the time.

Cool. All of those apply to me as well. I'm a student, I work at Mac, I make $10 an hour, I work 10 hours a week, sometimes I have to work a little more that I don't get paid for (such as answering student emails at home), I have 40 hours of school work per week (and volunteering), Mac tuition goes up but my hourly wage stays the same, I have limited time which makes another part time job difficult.

And yet I'm not striking. In fact, I'm very thankful to have a job at all.

We ARE students. But we're not undergraduate students. Due to the research nature of our degree, we are different then an undergraduate student, or say a Grad student doing a coursework Master's. We are, for all intents and purposes, part of the working academic world. We are somewhere in between Post-docs and Undergrads. We understand that the amount of money we make should not be the same as a university graduate working in the private sector.

But hey, we're asking for enough to make a sustainable living with. That's it.

Did you not know how TAships pay? Did you not ask around, do some research about this world you were about to enter? Surely you did some planning before choosing your field of study. Should you not have planned out your finances as well?

Originally Posted by DannyV

Did you not know how TAships pay? Did you not ask around, do some research about this world you were about to enter? Surely you did some planning before choosing your field of study. Should you not have planned out your finances as well?

Agreed. Saying "I didn't know about [this] or [that]" is the least legitimate reasoning ever. It's not someone else's fault that you didn't ask anything about your job before you took it.

Originally Posted by Kathy2

Cool. All of those apply to me as well. I'm a student, I work at Mac, I make $10 an hour, I work 10 hours a week, sometimes I have to work a little more that I don't get paid for (such as answering student emails at home), I have 40 hours or more of school work per week, Mac tuition goes up but my hourly wage stays the same, I have limited time which makes another part time job difficult.

And yet I'm not striking.

First off, you missed point 2 and the unlisted point. Secondly, I am of the belief that post-secondary education should be further subsidized then it is. Finally, while you do work part time at Mac, you also have an entire summer to work. While yes, you do earn less money then us (Or at least I am assuming so), you are also at a different stage in your life.

There any many people worse off then us (Third world countries with starving populations, for example) and we could most certainly all say "Well, we shouldn't complain because of they're worse off". But that's a poor argument in itself: Why should we let those with power treat us unfairly if we can (try and) do something to stop it?

Originally Posted by talues

First off, you missed point 2 and the unlisted point. Secondly, I am of the belief that post-secondary education should be further subsidized then it is. Finally, while you do work part time at Mac, you also have an entire summer to work. While yes, you do earn less money then us (Or at least I am assuming so), you are also at a different stage in your life.

There any many people worse off then us (Third world countries with starving populations, for example) and we could most certainly all say "Well, we shouldn't complain because of they're worse off". But that's a poor argument in itself: Why should we let those with power treat us unfairly if we can (try and) do something to stop it?

Some undergrads have school year-round. We can't all work in the summer.
And I don't know what you not asking questions about your job before you accepted the offer has anything to do with anything.

What you make for working 260 hours in the school year is more than I would make working full time in the summer and part time during the year combined. So what does summer work have to do with anything?

talues, twice I've responded directly to your posts and you haven't replied back. For my own interest (and perhaps others watching this thread), I'd really like to see what you have to say regarding the points I've raised in response to your argument.

Originally Posted by talues

Finally, while you do work part time at Mac, you also have an entire summer to work.

That's if we can find a job - I couldn't find one, and neither could a number of my friends. I'm currently working about 15 hours a week, for less than $10/hour (and no benefits, of course, since it's a part-time job), so a TA job would be a huge step up for me, and I imagine for most undergrads. I guess when someone is making more than twice as much as me, its hard to see why they're complaining so much.

Originally Posted by hummeld

I respect your opinion that every one should be allowed to earn above the poverty line, even though I don't necessarily agree. I think that if we got into that it would be too large a digression, however.

Another place where we'd likely disagree is if the cost of tuition should be factored in to our net income and not be viewed a personal cost. I feel this is relevant because my department (and many others) guarantee an income (again, before tuition) that is in excess of the poverty line for an individual living in the city the size of Hamilton. The cost of tuition is an investment in our future, since we all finish with post graduate degrees that carry value in the job market. Personally I don't see why the university should be required to provide an income less tuition in excess of the poverty line while we are here earning our degrees, because we do walk away with something valuable after our time here is over. And, again personally, I have no trouble living off my net income after tuition nor do most (if not all) the people I know.

If you read that and think my situation is not shared by everyone, there are graduate TAs at McMaster that take home substantially less and may be trying to support families, that is exactly my point. I acknowledge that people with similar situations and values should be able to bargain collectively (including strike action if necessary). Nonetheless, we are all represented by the same union, not by choice but as a requirement of being a graduate student at McMaster. I mentioned before that many times I've been asked, as a member of the union, to vote in the "collective" best interests rather than my own, including the vote for the strike mandate. As a result, I do not feel that my personal interests are best served by going on strike or by supporting the union in this regard.

That's just my opinion.

Ahhh, sorry. I've been trying my best to respond to every post (and in some cases completely messing up my argument in haste :S) but I guess I've been missing some.

I see where your coming from regarding whether or not to factor in tuition or not into our income, especially in regards to it being an investment into our future. A good discussion could be had over this, but similarly to the poverty line discussion, it's probably better suited on it's on then in this thread. That being said, I still don't agree with the university giving us a raise while at the same time raising tuition to (in a sense) counterbalance this raise. It seems sneaky and underhanded, although in reality it may not be. One could argue that this is due to the recession, but Canada is no longer in a recession (also economic times are still turbulent).

While it is certainly possible for some to live off of our net income, I would be doubtful that many (if any) can even being to work paying off their undergraduate debt. I would also be doubtful that many could begin investing into their future (in the form of a house, a family, etc). I guess it depends upon personal situations and definitions of "living off of". But I digress

Finally, your last point comes down to personal belief. I had an interesting discussion with a good friend of mine (not at Mac) regarding this. His stance is that the rights of the individual person above all, while mine is more a "what's best for all". My supporting of this strike is not for me, because quite frankly I can also live off of my current income and I don't need the benefits personally. It's for those who are less fortunate, need the benefits, etc. But I'm not going to chastise anyone who vote for their own personal beliefs: While I still feel scabbing is selfish, I also know that a union is (supposed to be) democratic. If the majority of peoples beliefs don't line up with mine (and they care to express it in the form of voting, for example) I'm not going to starting bitching and moaning over it. I'll engage in a discussion, surely, but I would (try) not whine about it.

I really appreciate your post, by the way. It's too bad I didn't reply to it earlier. I wish more posts were as constructive and thought out as yours.

Starting a family, buying a house and all those other "grown up" things that union supporters on these forums keep putting forward as things they cannot do because of the "big bad administration" are all lifestyle choices.

If you are not ready to start a family, then you don't. As has been said many times, it is unreasonable of students to expect the university pay them enough to start a family or buy a house.

Originally Posted by DannyV

Starting a family, buying a house and all those other "grown up" things that union supporters on these forums keep putting forward as things they cannot do because of the "big bad administration" are all lifestyle choices.

If you are not ready to start a family, then you don't. As has been said many times, it is unreasonable of students to expect the university pay them enough to start a family or buy a house.

Completely agree. I would never consider starting a family while in school, and frankly I'm not sure how any student could.

If you want to have a family/buy a house/whatever, that's great, it's your choice! Just be realistic and understand that being a student generally means you're not going to be living the same lifestyle as you would if you were a professional with a career.

Originally Posted by talues

Ahhh, sorry. I've been trying my best to respond to every post (and in some cases completely messing up my argument in haste :S) but I guess I've been missing some.

I see where your coming from regarding whether or not to factor in tuition or not into our income, especially in regards to it being an investment into our future. A good discussion could be had over this, but similarly to the poverty line discussion, it's probably better suited on it's on then in this thread. That being said, I still don't agree with the university giving us a raise while at the same time raising tuition to (in a sense) counterbalance this raise. It seems sneaky and underhanded, although in reality it may not be. One could argue that this is due to the recession, but Canada is no longer in a recession (also economic times are still turbulent).

While it is certainly possible for some to live off of our net income, I would be doubtful that many (if any) can even being to work paying off their undergraduate debt. I would also be doubtful that many could begin investing into their future (in the form of a house, a family, etc). I guess it depends upon personal situations and definitions of "living off of". But I digress

Finally, your last point comes down to personal belief. I had an interesting discussion with a good friend of mine (not at Mac) regarding this. His stance is that the rights of the individual person above all, while mine is more a "what's best for all". My supporting of this strike is not for me, because quite frankly I can also live off of my current income and I don't need the benefits personally. It's for those who are less fortunate, need the benefits, etc. But I'm not going to chastise anyone who vote for their own personal beliefs: While I still feel scabbing is selfish, I also know that a union is (supposed to be) democratic. If the majority of peoples beliefs don't line up with mine (and they care to express it in the form of voting, for example) I'm not going to starting bitching and moaning over it. I'll engage in a discussion, surely, but I would (try) not whine about it.

I really appreciate your post, by the way. It's too bad I didn't reply to it earlier. I wish more posts were as constructive and thought out as yours.

A note on paying off undergraduate debt: my (sizable) OSAP loans from my undergraduate degree are held interest free as long as I'm in graduate school. For this very reason I've always viewed grad school as a means of "hedging against inflation" because they actually decrease in value the longer I delay paying them off. I appreciate that others may have loans not being held interest free, so I only mention this as a personal note (although many others may be in the same position).

The longer this process has dragged on, I've thought more and more about why strike breaking may be considered selfish by those that support the strike. I've come to accept that you would have good reason to be angry at someone that continues to get paid for work during the strike, and yet still received all the benefits won from the action.

Through my previous posts, I've tried to illustrate that I don't feel this strike is in my best interests. I'd also like to say that since I was an undergraduate here and I TA courses that I have also taken, that I care intimately about the value of the education my students receive. As a result, I'm unable to justify to myself what is effectively ransoming my students' education for someone else's benefit. Since I appreciate that other people are attempting to sacrifice for something better, I feel that the only morally justifiable position left is to continue my TA duties and decline pay for the duration of the strike. I'm aware this may sound stupid to someone that supports the strike because I'm effectively giving the university a gift, but understand that this is not done out of some loyalty to the university itself.