i can distinguish religious ppl from the rest easily thanks to this topic.

1) Abortion should be legal
-Also:
2) If a man wishes his child to be aborted but the woman keeps it he should have no legal obligation to the child

It is not equal responsibility because men have no say abortion. The system is biased towards women giving them all the power in these desicions and allows them to take advantage of men.
Feel free to rage about ignorant ppl below.

Originally Posted by *spark*

One thing I wanted to add was the issue of partial birth abortion. While there are many people who support pro-choice, the numbers are much less for the people who support partial birth abortion. Technically, according to the law on abortion posted above, the procedure can be done while the naval string is intact by inducing the woman into labor and before fully 'giving birth' the doctor cuts the back of the neck and suctions out the brain. Why are so many more people against partial birth abortion? Is it simply because it appears to be such a gruesome procedure? Effectively it's doing the same thing but at a later stage of the pregnancy. Where do you draw the line?

I just want to add that this procedure is usually used when the foetus is very ill, mal-developed and will not live outside the body (ex. the brain develops outside the skull, the child doesn't develop lungs or a heart, and so on). Although the foetus is still technically "living" in utero it has no chance once out of the womb. This procedure is done so the mother (who has carried the foetus to term), and the family can mourn the loss of the infant with out having to watch in agony as the child struggles for air, suffocates or dies within minutes.

Originally Posted by *spark*

Why not teach the women of our society to think sensibly about their actions and the consequences of their actions.
.

This is probably one of the most hateful and misogynistic things to have been said in this thread. The woman must suffer the consequences of her actions? of what actions? having sex? This statement says that woman who have sex should be punished. What about the men whom get the women pregnant? Last I checked the only way women find themselves with child is if a man ejaculates in them. Where are the males consequences? they are equally responsible for the safety of the sexual act and anything which results from it. Culturally and Socially speaking when a couple becomes pregnant, it is the woman who is expected to raise it, and for the most part, unless she peruses the man legally, he can get off free not helping at all or paying child support. Why not address the sexism and double standards that come with this debate? Abortion is a women's issue and is much more complicated than "when does life begin and when is it morally wrong and when does it become murder?".


People who are truly pro-life would be pro sexual education and pro free and easy access to contraception and pro safe access to abortions. Having these things have been the ONLY proven way to drop abortions. These things have been proven to drop the abortion rate dramatically in america (not to mention the teen pregnancy rate and it also keep mothers and their wanted children healthy). IF you claim to be pro-life but are also against sex ed and contraception availability then you aren't pro life, you're anti-abortion and anti-women.

edit: relevant http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2011/06...ion-is-murder/

Ok, I can see how my statement about teaching women to thing sensibly about their actions can sound hateful, but I didn't mean it to sound this way. I was trying to say that it's simply a fact that having sex may lead to pregnancy, and if you want to avoid it you should try to protect yourself as much as possible. Also, pregnancy isn't some horrible event that should bring shame to women. And I don't think the woman should carry the entire burden or raising the child, and this is why there are some laws that try to hold responsibility to the father, even though these laws may not be as effective as people would like it to be.

Also, I never said that I'm against sexual education or protection. I think these things are a great tool to avoid abortions. I also think that there should be more resources and aid for women going through unplanned pregnancies, especially if they find themselves without a lot of support from the father or others.

The fact is that abortion is not an easy procedure at all. It usually is very emotionally draining and may even put the mother at risk. Because we still have the choice to get an abortion in this country it's important to teach women about the risks. It's easy to get caught up in arguments about whether or not abortion is right and forget about what the women are actually going through when they get an abortion. There are many women who go through emotional distress after undergoing the procedure for whatever reason that may be, and I think it's great that there are people who are dedicated to helping these women through therapy.

I know that I can never actually 'win' the argument and that was never my goal. I just wanted to share the other side of the debate and get people to at least rethink the issue. Because we live in a pro-choice society it's important to really think about the choices we are making.



Anyway, I'm gonna have to stop 'trolling' on this forum (and start studying for my midterms...)

While there are many people who support pro-choice, the numbers are much less for the people who support partial birth abortion. Technically, according to the law on abortion posted above, the procedure can be done while the naval string is intact by inducing the woman into labor and before fully 'giving birth' the doctor cuts the back of the neck and suctions out the brain

This is absolutely ridiculous, no OB would do that. For D + E's, the cord is clamped in-utero and the fetus is terminated. There is no 'induction' of birth in a D + E. It's a dilatation of the cervix and evacuation of the terminated fetus.

There are < 5 late-term abortion providers in Canada and the cut-off for the latest one is at ~ 23 weeks at which point the fetus would not be viable. In many cases, these fetuses have such severe defects that the woman would go through undue pain and risk only to have their child die shortly after birth.

Originally Posted by *spark*

One thing I wanted to add was the issue of partial birth abortion. While there are many people who support pro-choice, the numbers are much less for the people who support partial birth abortion. Technically, according to the law on abortion posted above, the procedure can be done while the naval string is intact by inducing the woman into labor and before fully 'giving birth' the doctor cuts the back of the neck and suctions out the brain. Why are so many more people against partial birth abortion? Is it simply because it appears to be such a gruesome procedure? Effectively it's doing the same thing but at a later stage of the pregnancy. Where do you draw the line?

As far as I know, abortion clinics in Ontario will only help you out until 20 weeks. After that, they will try referring you to a clinic in the States. Not sure how it is with other provinces, but the whole "where do you draw the line?" question always bothers me. Mostly because this question seems to suggest situations that wouldn't happen in present-day life where we live.