Originally Posted by DavidR

So we're in agreement that school can continue without TAs? That seems like it would solve all of the problems! Just sayin..

I don't think anyone said they were in agreement with this?

I doubt Professors want to take over marking things TAs would otherwise be marking and I doubt students want to see things like final exams more heavily weighted because assignments can't be marked.

So no, school can technically run without TAs in terms of lectures but in terms of grades this could be a huge mess.

Also I can't speak for all programs but for me to be able to complete many of my final assignments I rely on TAs to teach certain software to myself and my group mates so that we know how to do a project. Also I find tutorials helpful, discussing material and hearing presentations on it helps me understand theories and concepts and makes it easier to write about them on exams. Without tutorials I will be lacking a part of my course that helps me understand and engage with the material and study for the exam.

TAs are important.

Originally Posted by ramirez.a

I would much rather have a student union that is not intimidated and refuses to be a push over rather than just standing aside and letting the issue escalate without taking a firm stance - something they are required to do as an official representative body of students.

Here is One of the reasons why
A "firm" stance is not necessarily the correct or appropriate stance in such issues. As a student union the students do come first; hence supporting a union or the admin in such circumstances would do no one any favors!

Originally Posted by sew12

I doubt Professors want to take over marking things TAs would otherwise be marking ...

One of my profs said that he won't be doing anything that TAs would normally do, like marking

Originally Posted by ramirez.a

I disagree. the York student union were not 'stupid' in supporting the strike.
I suggest reconsidering your use of words considering political science is one of your majors.

You might not agree with the stance The York student union held in supporting the strike, however what you should consider is that they actually had the *courage* to defend their principles - regardless of the criticism they were knowingly going to confront.

I would much rather have a student union that is not intimidated and refuses to be a push over rather than just standing aside and letting the issue escalate without taking a firm stance - something they are required to do as an official representative body of students.

I can understand if your philosophical views on economic policies generate a bias against unions, however it is clear that you fail to understand the perspectives and conditions the union is under and why the mechanism of a strike is the only leveraging tool the union has in getting the employer to listen to its addressing issues seriously.

Perhaps if the YFS VP Academic had not decided to go play kiss ass to the CFS chumps the York strike would have been handled in a much better manner. At Laurier, the VP University Affairs spearheaded a letter writing campaign to the University administration to lay out that Laurier neither supported nor opposed the demands of either side, and wanted the strike over as quickly as possible in the interest of students. It worked.

BTW. For posterity's sake. This guy is Alex Ramirez. He is the CUPE poster boy aka the dude with the microphone in all the picture. He is a staunch leftist activist and has a viewpoint that is the actvist hardline amongst CUPE. Not that he doesn't come off as a decent guy, but his stance needs to be known so that we can all take his posts with a grain of salt. They are not without bias.

Essentially everyone who's posted (both positive and negative opinions) has a bias and it's pretty obvious in both cases. I don't see why Alex needs to be singled out when nearly everyone is also biased.

Because Alex needs to represent himself in a proper manner. I'm not some hidden University official calling for an end to the strike. I'm a student whose damn tuition money pays these salaries. Every person who is opposed to the strike has made their stances clear; some are TAs who don't agree, others are students.

We don't need leftist propaganda and activism riddling message boards simply because a few people want a raise.

Originally Posted by ramirez.a

I disagree. the York student union were not 'stupid' in supporting the strike.

They sure did once Sid Ryan started coming off like a fascist prick in his attempted Spanish inquisition into prof's with any political views about Israel... especially at a University with a large Palestinian population!

Originally Posted by deadpool

Because Alex needs to represent himself in a proper manner. I'm not some hidden University official calling for an end to the strike. I'm a student whose damn tuition money pays these salaries. Every person who is opposed to the strike has made their stances clear; some are TAs who don't agree, others are students.

I don't really care for some of Alex's comments, but from what I've seen, Alex is also a student. Also the Undergraduate Committee (whatever it said in that e-mail) wasn't part of the University.

We don't need leftist propaganda and activism riddling message boards simply because a few people want a raise.

As opposed to right-wing activism and generalizations?

Sure, Alex likes CUPE but he's entitled to his opinion. Just like others who aren't are entitled to their opinion. Both sides should be taken with a grain of salt because some of the anti-union things that I've seen are equally biased (e.g. all unions are lazy/greedy, etc.) as some of the pro-union comments.

I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, but be consistent.

Just as a note: Prior to any bashing, I'm not pro-CUPE or anti-union.

Right wing activism?

Right wing activism would be doing what the Young PC party of Ontario was doing and trying to infiltrate left-leaning groups.

I am pointing out facts. I am pointing out the fact that YFS VP Education went to Ottawa to picket Parliament with the CFS instead of taking care of the students who elected her when the strike was called.

I am pointing out the fact that York is the only University in Ontario who had problems filling up all their first year spots.

I am pointing out the fact that McMaster University is forecasting a deficit in the next few years, and doesn't have money to raise wages simply because UofT pays their TAs more.

I am pointing out the fact that many TAs at McMaster are VERY content with their wages and feel as if they have not had a voice when it comes to a strike.

I am not unleashing meaningless rhetoric based on activism based on communist and socialist movements. I don't hate unionism as a concept, I hate the bastardization of it that CUPE flies it's flag under. I want to graduate and I want to move on past McMaster without having to cross picket lines of disgruntled TAs who will make more per hour than I will for the next 10 years.

Originally Posted by deadpool

Right wing activism?

Right wing activism would be doing what the Young PC party of Ontario was doing and trying to infiltrate left-leaning groups.

I am pointing out facts. I am pointing out the fact that YFS VP Education went to Ottawa to picket Parliament with the CFS instead of taking care of the students who elected her when the strike was called.

I am pointing out the fact that York is the only University in Ontario who had problems filling up all their first year spots.

I am pointing out the fact that McMaster University is forecasting a deficit in the next few years, and doesn't have money to raise wages simply because UofT pays their TAs more.

I am pointing out the fact that many TAs at McMaster are VERY content with their wages and feel as if they have not had a voice when it comes to a strike.

I am not unleashing meaningless rhetoric based on activism based on communist and socialist movements. I don't hate unionism as a concept, I hate the bastardization of it that CUPE flies it's flag under. I want to graduate and I want to move on past McMaster without having to cross picket lines of disgruntled TAs who will make more per hour than I will for the next 10 years.

I wasn't specifically referring to your posts.

There are people with clear right-wing views on labor unions making blanket statements like "all unions are useless" and "their workers are lazy/greedy". Personally I'm not fond of the generalized TA hate as I think it's misdirected, but that's another story. I haven't kept track of them specifically, but they are definitely there if you sift through some of the threads.

While in some cases I see an issue with unions, in other cases they do have a beneficial role.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Jay

While in some cases I see an issue with unions, in other cases they do have a beneficial role.

Exactly. Its an issue of bad unions vs good unions, not unions suck in general or unions are great in general.

With every other issue in the world there is good and bad, why would it not be the same way with unions?

Just because in theory unions are good and put in place to help works etc doesn't mean every union is good or represents their membership well.

On Topic: Alex mentioned the fact that the SRA members "apparently" aren't taking a stance on it and bashing the admin(presumably that is what you are suggesting we should do). Here's the thing; I am personally rather left wing myself and usually anti corporations and pro-union and workers rights. With Regards to CUPE I'm not 100% sure if I should support them based entirely on my political ideology and forgo student interests. On one side I do believe that if there is any element of truth to Dsahota's arguments regarding the payment discrepancy between Mac T.A's both in the number of hours paid and the wage rate compared to similar sized Ontario Universities(as Shown in the Sil Graph) then CUPE had every right to demand a higher more equitable wage. Rohan is using Uoft's example; and given our deficiet we cannot afford to rival them(even without the deficiet!) but there were other universities like Ryerson, Guelph and Windsor that do have higher "yearly" wages for both Undergrad and Grad category(even if those graphs had flaws there is a general pattern). So based purely on respect for economic market laws I felt initially as if the T.A's probably deserve a raise. Yes I do realize that even twice the minimum wage is a ridiculous amount for most of us who are lucky to get minimum wage jobs; but that's just how specialization works! Lawyers get paid upwards of $300 per billable hour even if a couple of them are spent doing "buisness lunches" or "Traveling to and from buisness"; but people who hire them are more then willing to pay it because they are the best of the best. The Same way atleast undergrad T.A's have some level of specialization(high GPA for one). But this argumet loses a few points when we consider the fact that Graduate T.A's are almost guaranteed a job as a T.A. But still call my quixotic but its the market prices I fully respect and I have a hard time "hating" the T.A's for aiming for that wage rate, there is nothing THAT evil about it.

My concern though is with the behaviour of CUPE and their rather undemocratic bargaining process; first the refusal to release voting numbers is sketchy, then their refusal to allow T.A's to vote on the final mandate despite even the University demanding/suggesting that CUPE negotiators should do that! If the descision to strike is actually that democratically popular then they should have had no issues getting another strike vote.

As Sew12 said:
"Just because in theory unions are good and put in place to help works etc doesn't mean every union is good or represents their membership well."

I might be wrong but I feel as if the whole mess is largely because too much power at the ending moments of this issue was granted to the negotiation team; plus there should be atleast a 2/3 of all members quorum mandatory before a poll is considered an "official" position for the union. If actual polling stations aren't working try mail in votes or better yet even online voting!

Hence I suppose the blame is twofold: a) Cupe for making a bit of a hash of the whole process

b) The Admin for not giving them a more satisfactory pay(By either Increasing the payable hours or Wage Rate) and at that last minute rolling back of the concessions they had made earlier; its almost as if they decided they want to go through with the strike! :S I do realize at the same time though that McMaster faces a possible $40-50 mil Deficet but T.A wages are a not that significant percentage of the overall wage costs of the annual Budget.

I am pointing out the fact that McMaster University is forecasting a deficit in the next few years, and doesn't have money to raise wages simply because UofT pays their TAs more.

[/quote]

... are you aware that $100,000 ever year for the next 14 years will be going to a [soon to be] retired McMaster president {which will literally be paid out of students pockets, and was unilaterally and arbitrarily announcement without ANY consent of students}... to go along with a $300,000 annual pension.

I think students should start posing questions on the financial expenditures of upper administration, and why students virtually have no say in where our money is being spent.

... brings to question the democratic values of McMaster Univesity.

*education is not a commodity to profit out of*

The argument of CUPE not representing the needs of their TAs - and students for that matter - i can argue is a statement that is made without intense investigation on the entire process of negotiations dating back to the beginning of summer.

A quick 101 on unions: within the past 20 years (literally within the generation of most current students at McMaster - and society as a whole), unions and organized labour have been the direct target of dominating economic policies. These policies have literally outlined the eradication of unions to facilitate a 'freer - undisrupted market'. As a result, these economic policies and philosophies that have been imposed and penetrated into our generations mindsets clearly- and sadly - have demonstrated their effect with this current negotiation process with CUPE's unit 1 bargaining team.

This is what I have learned from this entire process.

It is beyond my comprehension how McMaster university students - encouraged and expected to think critically - cannot see the broader issue that this negotiation process entails.

Every form of resistance against powerful social and economic structures are continuously being pushed into a cornor with policies and by-laws that make any attempt of legitimate resistance merely impossible.

Moreover, listening and reading the majority of the criticism towards CUPE has also highlighted another important issue - most people (and students) do not understand the priority issues that CUPE stated as the key concerns that need to be addressed. - in other words; they do not entirely understand the broader issues that are being addressed, because if they did, there is absolutely no way any student can say CUPE is only working out of the interest of their members and executives attempt at 'legitimacy and power'.


I would gladly love for anyone to discuss and attempt to convince me that the proposal of the university does in fact attain to the interests of students... because if they can, I will gladly support it.

However the reality is, McMaster's administration refuses to:

- place caps on tutorial and lab sizes.

- Allow 5th and 6th year PhD candidates from being Tutorial or Research assistants

- Refuse to increase the hourly contract from 260 to 270 hours as a remedy to address the issue of unpaid over-work that most TA/RAs experience (while the majority of universities across Ontario have a 280 hour contract)

Instead, they chose to place money into wages (which CUPE has made it very clear that they want a wage freeze for graduate assisstants - meaning no increase to graduate TAs.) and it is very clear why they are doing this, as this tactic is working to a tee here at McMaster.

In the attempt to sway public opinion and demonize the union's actions as illegitimate and irrational, they highlight that they are increasing wages - and the unions still wants 'more', so they strike to screw students over - hence the argument "they act in the interest of their members - not students'.

But why aren’t they putting ANY EMPHASIS on the primary issues???????

If anyone could genuinely explain to me how the university's actions of: **increasing tuition fees + slashed services,
**increasing class sizes + prohibiting the most experienced and educated candidates from assisting undergraduates...

are in the *best interests* of students???

Somebody, please enlighten me, or am I missing out on something??

... if anyone uses the 'tough economic conditions' as a argument, I will not take any of your responses serious.