Originally Posted by Mowicz

No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous statement...because if someone proves the existence of God...then you won't believe. You'll know. That's not what faith is.

We've had discussions in the past, and I'm pretty sure you believe in the concept of TT (pi), so I'm going to reasonably guess that you believe in the concept of 'infinity' or in other words, 'things growing without bound.' ... but why? What 'scientific evidence' is there behind things being infinite? Or, in the context we were discussing, something having 'a length of pi' ?

Simple: Someone sat down and made an axiom. We assume infinity exists, because we believe it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_infinity


Why is this any different from someone sitting down and making an "Axiom of God?" Infact, that's in some sense how I treat faith and religion...as a set of axioms.

(I noted on here months back that I was writing a book over the past two summers on this very topic...of course it's at a standstill right now)

So what I'm arguing here is, believing in Infinity is no less absurd than believing in God.

I don't believe it's a ridiculous statement, as I believe that blind faith is an extremely unintelligent way of living.

As for the concept of infinity, I think that we can conceive it exists (for example, the edge of the universe,Time being infinite). There is a way to test said existence (send a probe to the edge of the universe, or create something to measure time until infinity... may not be feasible due to restrictions on resources, or dealing with physics, but we can think of a way to test it).

As for a "god" or some other incarnation of such a supernatural being, there is no way to test for it, and therefore it is more ridiculous to believe in such a being over the concept of infinity.

Originally Posted by Taunton

I don't believe it's a ridiculous statement, as I believe that blind faith is an extremely unintelligent way of living.

As for the concept of infinity, I think that we can conceive it exists (for example, the edge of the universe). There is a way to test said existence (send a probe to the edge of the universe, or create something to measure time until infinity... may not be feasible due to restrictions on resources, or dealing with physics, but we can think of a way to test it).

As for a "god" or some other incarnation of such a supernatural being, there is no way to test for it, and therefore it is more ridiculous to believe in such a being over the concept of infinity.

How would you test for the existence of infinity with a probe (or any experimental method)?
Imagine you send a probe out to 'the edge of the universe' if such thing exists:

1) You will never know if the universe is infinite in spatial extent or just very, very big. At what point would you stop and say "ok ive gone far enough, I conclude the universe is infinite"? Infinity is not a very large number.

2) If the universe wraps around, then it still does not prove anything about infinity, it merely shows the geometry of the universe is such that it wraps around. Like on a mobius band.

3) If the universe is finite, you will reach the end and you will know it is finite. But that says nothing about the concept of infinity.

The same goes for any other experimental method. You can test for finiteness, but never for infinity.

Originally Posted by hmmmcurious

How would you test for the existence of infinity with a probe (or any experimental method)?
Imagine you send a probe out to 'the edge of the universe' if such thing exists:

1) You will never know if the universe is infinite in spatial extent or just very, very big. At what point would you stop and say "ok ive gone far enough, I conclude the universe is infinite"? Infinity is not a very large number.

2) If the universe wraps around, then it still does not prove anything about infinity, it merely shows the geometry of the universe is such that it wraps around. Like on a mobius band.

3) If the universe is finite, you will reach the end and you will know it is finite. But that says nothing about the concept of infinity.

The same goes for any other experimental method. You can test for finiteness, but never for infinity.

Thanks, I accept that my example is incorrect.

I guess the way I think of it is this:

There are valid reasons to believe that certain incarnations of infinity could exist (ie there is no reason to believe that the decimal form of pi has an end... there's certainly no indication that it may have an end, even though this is possible).

Another way that infinity could be "proven" is through numbers. You can always add 1 to any number, and so the possible magnitude of numbers is infinite.

On the other hand, there is no reason to believe that a god exists (and in fact there are fewer and fewer reasons now than there ever was because many phenomina associated with a "god" have been proven to be caused or influenced by other natural factors). I maintain that the concept of any "god" or supernatural being is a ridiculous one.

Anyways, I have no reason to believe in a god. If you or anyone else does, then that's great as long as you don't try to convert me or my family members, or push religion on me in any way. That's when I get nasty.

Originally Posted by Taunton

Thanks, I accept that my example is incorrect.

I guess the way I think of it is this:

There are valid reasons to believe that certain incarnations of infinity could exist (ie there is no reason to believe that the decimal form of pi has an end... there's certainly no indication that it may have an end, even though this is possible).

Another way that infinity could be "proven" is through numbers. You can always add 1 to any number, and so the possible magnitude of numbers is infinite.

On the other hand, there is no reason to believe that a god exists (and in fact there are fewer and fewer reasons now than there ever was because many phenomina associated with a "god" have been proven to be caused or influenced by other natural factors). I maintain that the concept of any "god" or supernatural being is a ridiculous one.

Anyways, I have no reason to believe in a god. If you or anyone else does, then that's great as long as you don't try to convert me or my family members, or push religion on me in any way. That's when I get nasty.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES OLOL.

;d

****ing hate them!

They came by my house in the summer and didn't even wait for me to say hi before they went off on their rant. Then I cut them off and said, "I don't believe in your god, a god, or gods."

And this is what they said.

"It's perfectly natural for someone to question their faith if they're having a hard time with life or if they've lost someone close to them..."

Omy. Religious people offend me.

Originally Posted by Taunton

Thanks, I accept that my example is incorrect.



Anyways, I have no reason to believe in a god. If you or anyone else does, then that's great as long as you don't try to convert me or my family members, or push religion on me in any way. That's when I get nasty.

I'm agnostic.

I just irks me when someone is so sure of themselves (not saying that you are) one way or another. It's okay to believe in a god or not believe in a god, but I would get concerned if you think you have a logically sound proof either way.

yea im agnostic too, and it also irks me when there are those atheists who belittle those who believe in god...theres nothing wrong with it, but it also irks me even more when a christian pokes fun at science!...actually no sometimes it can be quite humorous lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfv-Qn1M58I

We watched this in Philosophy as an example of a logical fallacy, in a Catholic school

lmao didnt see that one before, haha wow...but yea gotta admit, bananas are pretty convenient

new topic:

if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound

Originally Posted by Strongwiller

new topic:

if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound

oh dear !!! this one again !!

technically it does ... because it is sending disturbances in the air which can be picked up by a person but because no one is there to hear it one can't hear it ...


but there is sound ...

- Abhi

Originally Posted by ReDorkulateD

yea im agnostic too, and it also irks me when there are those atheists who belittle those who believe in god...theres nothing wrong with it, but it also irks me even more when a christian pokes fun at science!...actually no sometimes it can be quite humorous lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504

lmao this & the banana thing made my day =P

ooh .. good times !!!

Originally Posted by Strongwiller

new topic:

if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound

What is your definition of sound?

If it's the propagation of air waves then the answer is yes.

If it's the reception of these air waves by the ear then the answer is no.

I believe the first definition is the common one used in our society. We say that deaf people cannot hear any sounds. Which implies that sounds do not have to be heard for them to exist.

How about:
What came first the chicken or the chicken egg?
Yeah I add chicken egg because otherwise people say the dinosaur egg came first...

Originally Posted by Duarch

How about:
What came first the chicken or the chicken egg?
Yeah I add chicken egg because otherwise people say the dinosaur egg came first...

Chicken Egg.

Reason: The animal that laid the chicken egg was not completely 100% a chicken. The chicken egg would have been a mutation at that time.

Originally Posted by jhan523

Chicken Egg.

Reason: The animal that laid the chicken egg was not completely 100% a chicken. The chicken egg would have been a mutation at that time.

That's the same logic I used when I figured it out after gr. 11 genetics.


ANOTHER:
How do you know you're alive and not sleeping this entire life (kind of like the matrix)... oooooooh