Chad's post is the BEST you'll get from this forum. As an Arts student you really have to distinguish yourselves and apply your learning into real world job or volunteer experiences. I had to forgoe admissions into some top tier science/engineering/business programs all across North America due to financial costs but even when it came down to finding the cheapest school I chose SocSci at Mac specifically because I had a very strong personal interest in this field all throughout highschool as well as through my personal values and ruminations.

Throughout my four years at Mac I've been extensively involved in some amazing opportunistic, met thousands of people and even got paid for it. While I participated in all of that because I was strongly driven by an internal passion to as cliche as it might sound "Change the world" or "Leave it better then you entered it", when I look back at it my resume does look quite decent, but more importantly I feel ready mentally to take on just about any challenge I might face in a workplace due to the time management, leadership, project management, public speaking and most importantly people skills I've learnt through whatever the MSU and McMaster offered me. These opportunistic are available to everyone without prejudice, and even if it seems intimidating at first...I was in the exact same spot as you a few years ago.

You still have quite a bit of time, find a club, volunteer for an MSU Service, Scan OSCAR regularly for opportunities. You just need an inroad.

Reading some of the responses to this...I can't believe how misguided some of them are. Here are my two cents:

I've known people from just about every walk of life during my academic career. Some in 'job-finders' programs, that offer practical training/work experience like Engineering, or Med Rad Sci, and others in "useless" programs like Humanities or *gasp* Multimedia.

However, I know plenty of engineers (a quick count on my fingers yields 6) who are currently working fast food, and I know many humanities students who went on to lead very successful careers (including, again, 6 or 7 who went into law).

To everyone (not just the OP): The problem is, your piece of paper is absolutely worthless. It truly is. There is no recipe for success, and unfortunately no program for it either. Anyone who's truly done their research would know that times are tough and, with more people attending and finishing university (just look at the enrollment this year for example), jobs are harder to come by.

It boils down to what you learn by being here. If you honestly need to be in multimedia, and you don't feel you can learn what you're learning on your own, then the bottom line is, you're not being duped. This includes the technical skills, academic skills, or even people skills.

If you're just sitting in classes, learning how to use a computer, and some software that you knew how to use since you were in Grade 10, then I'm sorry to say you're wasting your money. If however, you're networking, making connections and learning a craft that you absolutely love, this will shine through.

This goes for every program: To any engineers, beware, the job market stinks right now. You really need to polish up your resume/CV, and apply absolutely everywhere to get a job. Having an engineering degree really isn't enough, because there are more than enough grads with such a degree. Instead, you need to show them what sets you apart...and if you're not making a name for yourself, not truly showing what you're made of, then I'm sorry to say, you're being duped too.


Take home point: Make a name for yourself! Your education is a tool, not a guarantee. Your piece of paper doesn't actually mean anything... Use your skills to make your own success.

Take a 100 people with an engineering/nursing/professional degree: 40% might be getting into the workplace in their specific field, the other 60% lose out because they didn't take enough of the soft-skills away from school. And that 40% is consuming 100% of the available professional job positions (i.e. There are minimal/zero college grads/high school grads taking those professional positions away from the B.Eng., or the Nurse)

Take 100 people with one of the non-professional degrees being discussed here: 10% might be getting jobs related to their education, the other 90% aren't, and that 10% might be consuming 50% of the available positions in that field (i.e. The other 50% is going to college, or high school grads)

I think that difference is what "worthless piece of paper" is referring to. While I fully agree with Incognitus, I think that "worthless" should be clarified/defined a bit better, and the above scenarios do that.

Originally Posted by Leeoku

that was a good read chad. all this talking and still trying to do all that stuff while survivng eng. Btw iv tried looking and wondered what u would need for a uts job application/reqs/where to find

Thanks Leeoku. UTS, at least back when I was working at Mac, had some great positions that open during the year called "SCs" and "SSCs". Student Consultants, and Senior Student Consultants. The role is found on OSCAR I believe, and they hire at specific times during the year. The position is under the UTS Student Technology Services department (STS). Basically during the year the computer labs on campus (at least the main ones run by UTS) are managed and staffed by students working part-time. They sit at the desks in the computer labs such as the ones in JHE, BSB, and KTH basement. As a Junior consultant you have a bunch of duties to maintain the lab and help students if they have questions or problems while using the computers. You setup equipment for profs that use the lab for tutorials or lectures, and you make sure the printer is working, amongst other things. What's great about working for UTS as a student part-time is that in this particular role you're able to work 'blocks' of time so throughout the day while the labs are open you work 1-2 hours shifts and get to schedule them in between your classes so they don't conflict with your schedule and you get paid for what you work. It's fantastic. Plus with the system that was developed by students to manage shifts, you're able to trade shifts with co-workers if you have to (like if things get tough one week and you need extra time to study or work on a project). Positions are very hard to get though and you need to go through an interview process as well as take a test to prove you have basic technical skills so you can troubleshoot problems in the labs.

Once you work as a Junior consultant you later can become a senior consultant where you help to manage the team of juniors (get some great leadership and team management experience), and are given more responsibilities and tasks. The senior consultants also get the opportunity to work full-time during the summer as a team on some projects for UTS. Projects that I worked on while in the role were really exciting including working on some mail server setup, really innovative web apps, programming and design of online interfaces, Adobe Flash projects, etc.

Things may have changed since I worked there but I highly recommend contacting UTS to find out more. Contact the new STS Supervisor Julia Kraveca [email protected] r.ca x23678, or give the administrator Sara Lake a call, x26300, I worked with Sara when I was part of UTS and she's amazingly helpful and friendly.

Originally Posted by Incognitus

Reading some of the responses to this...I can't believe how misguided some of them are. Here are my two cents:

I've known people from just about every walk of life during my academic career. Some in 'job-finders' programs, that offer practical training/work experience like Engineering, or Med Rad Sci, and others in "useless" programs like Humanities or *gasp* Multimedia.

However, I know plenty of engineers (a quick count on my fingers yields 6) who are currently working fast food, and I know many humanities students who went on to lead very successful careers (including, again, 6 or 7 who went into law).

To everyone (not just the OP): The problem is, your piece of paper is absolutely worthless. It truly is. There is no recipe for success, and unfortunately no program for it either. Anyone who's truly done their research would know that times are tough and, with more people attending and finishing university (just look at the enrollment this year for example), jobs are harder to come by.

It boils down to what you learn by being here. If you honestly need to be in multimedia, and you don't feel you can learn what you're learning on your own, then the bottom line is, you're not being duped. This includes the technical skills, academic skills, or even people skills.

If you're just sitting in classes, learning how to use a computer, and some software that you knew how to use since you were in Grade 10, then I'm sorry to say you're wasting your money. If however, you're networking, making connections and learning a craft that you absolutely love, this will shine through.

This goes for every program: To any engineers, beware, the job market stinks right now. You really need to polish up your resume/CV, and apply absolutely everywhere to get a job. Having an engineering degree really isn't enough, because there are more than enough grads with such a degree. Instead, you need to show them what sets you apart...and if you're not making a name for yourself, not truly showing what you're made of, then I'm sorry to say, you're being duped too.


Take home point: Make a name for yourself! Your education is a tool, not a guarantee. Your piece of paper doesn't actually mean anything... Use your skills to make your own success.

Thanks, a lot. This post was really eye opening, as I think we've all caught ourselves going to class merely to say we did, rather than realizing we're paying to actively learn and engage the material. I have to agree that if I don't use the resources available, I'm probably wasting my time and so are a lot of other people.

I want to thank everyone in this thread for their responses, some were definitely more helpful than others. I definitely didn't enter University blindly, as spending $24,000 is not a small sum of money, I do resent that many were quick to assume that I did not do my research before coming to University though, as I think a lot of Engineering students are under the misconception that to be in an Arts course you must have no other option, which I can assure you is incorrect.

Originally Posted by mike_302

Take a 100 people with an engineering/nursing/professional degree: 40% might be getting into the workplace in their specific field, the other 60% lose out because they didn't take enough of the soft-skills away from school. And that 40% is consuming 100% of the available professional job positions (i.e. There are minimal/zero college grads/high school grads taking those professional positions away from the B.Eng., or the Nurse)

Take 100 people with one of the non-professional degrees being discussed here: 10% might be getting jobs related to their education, the other 90% aren't, and that 10% might be consuming 50% of the available positions in that field (i.e. The other 50% is going to college, or high school grads)

I think that difference is what "worthless piece of paper" is referring to. While I fully agree with Incognitus, I think that "worthless" should be clarified/defined a bit better, and the above scenarios do that.

Though you also raise a good point, perhaps this will prove useful:

By worthless piece of paper, I'm refering to the fact that simply having a degree, is a general cut-off for the application process, and nothing more. It represents the fact that you sat through 3-5 years of education and were bombarded with relevant information. Unfortunately, it is by no means a measure of how well you absorbed, and can apply said information (even your grades fail to be a good measure, or at least that's what I've experienced).

And so you're right: If you don't have a certain basic qualification, you're not** going to be looked at, at all. However, these basic qualifications, often times, mean very little.

**There are countless exceptions to this. Just FYI, I know a guy who took a certificate program at Mohawk College, and was actually hired at an engineering firm over someone with a B.Eng (can give more precise info if you'd like), because he met the basic requirements, had great people skills and, frankly, because he cost less.

---------

I do have one cautionary note however: In theory, you're right, that someone who is less educated cannot "steal" a job from someone in a professional program. Unfortunately this does not apply in practice. There are (at least) 3 ways this "stealing" can occur:

1) Outsourcing (I'm sure you've heard it all before). Why pay a Canadian Engineer $80/hr when a Chinese/Indian Engineer will do the same work for $20/hr? I do believe that some jobs cannot be outsourced (particularly those on the creative end/project management end of Engineering), but many are and this is why the job market is particularly rough on Engineers at the moment.

2) Overlooking the requirements: This happens, not a whole lot, but a lot more than you might think (like my friend from Mohawk). We've all kind of been duped in a sense, into thinking that there's only one way to do things: Get an education, finish your bachelors (or more) and find a sensible job. The almighty dollar rules everything, and so if a less expensive prospective employee without a B.Eng. demonstrates themselves as fully capable*, and costs less, a corporation might be willing to 'look the other way.' Besides, who says a company has to follow some university's arbitrary rules about who's smart?

*Demonstrating yourself as capable, particularly getting an interview in the first place, is challenging without that piece of paper...but doable.

3) Creation of new "sub-qualified" jobs/programs: I haven't witnessed this one first hand among any of my friends/colleagues, but it's an intriguing concept. I'll use healthcare as an example, since I can't think of a good one for engineers. I may have my dates wrong, but I'm pretty sure the point would still stand anyway:

30ish years ago, Doctors were the only ones deemed capable of performing certain tasks, such as drawing blood or setting a broken bone. These tasks have since been delegated to 'lower' ranking officials such as nurses, who have received additional training to do so. But many of these nurses can't get jobs due to limited positions (luckily, nurses are not something you can outsource directly), and in particular, limited government funding.

On the other end of the spectrum, we just can't seem to pump out doctors fast enough. So what did they come up with? A new program/vocation called a Physician's Assistant. Essentially, Junior doctors who do the important stuff under Physician supervision, and get paid less. And don't get me wrong, I think this is a great idea and should (finger's crossed) alleviate some of the load on our health care system.

Fine and good, but who gets pushed off the scale? Nurses, who despite being trained in a number of tasks Physician's Assistants aren't, are just plain expendable by comparison.

EDIT: I just thought of another example for 3):

Educational Assistants are crucial members of the classroom environment for so-called "identified" students. However, the job market is absolutely brutal at the moment as government cuts are happening everywhere. But to make things worse, volunteers (ie. with no formal training whatsoever, but cost nothing), as well as EA students (who have mandatory placements in schools as part of their program) are replacing them in the classroom...and not deliberately of course. But why pay someone, when you can not pay someone?

Mostly well and true. My previous post where I said 100% may not be entirely correct. Maybe when I said 100% of these jobs are taken by Professional degree graduates, that could be taken closer to 75%-90%. I think these cases are a lot less common than, say for example, the Humanities student that loses out on an employment opportunity to a college or high school graduate, because of the nature of the majority of jobs for those students.

In your second point, overlooking requirements: I should note that these are jobs that can be handled by either the University or College engineer grad. They are jobs that do not require the B.Eng and the P.Eng. There are many more jobs out there that DEMAND a certain level of engineering education (Only a P.Eng. can stamp designs for the final go ahead), so that still elevates the Professional degree slightly above worthless. Again though, I agree: It does seem worthless when you look at the number who get into these special fields laid out for them because they didn't take advantage of the opportunities in University.

I feel I need to chime in once more, I feel like that last point is apples to oranges, but again raises a good point: Professional degrees are a whole other ballgame. There's a reason we, as a society, put our faith in professionals, they've been tried and tested in a rigorous manner.

Note that a P.Eng is very different from a B.Eng. in much the same way as an MD is vastly superior to a B.HSc. There's, to my knowledge, no such thing as an undergraduate professional degree. (And even if there was, there's no way to ensure those who hold such a degree didn't just coast through, which is the point I've been trying to emphasize)

To get a P.Eng, you need a certain body of knowledge (Essentially, your B.Eng), but you must also have worked as a "full blown engineer" (an internship, but as far as I see it, it's the same thing) for 2-4 years, which requires testing your mettle and landing the job in the first place (which requires you set yourself apart, etc. as I said in the last post). And then you need to prove you've survived all that by writing a comprehensive exam.

Anyone with a P.Eng designation**, in my opinion, has excelled and is at the forefront of engineering excellence. They've honed their craft, and let their degrees and training work for them. Needless to say, my 6 or so friends working fast food with their B.Eng. failed to land a job, let alone score the holy grail, P.Eng.

**I suppose before a certain time period, every engineer got one because it was easier to land a job. So I guess to be more precise...anyone who's graduated in the last say, 8 years and landed a P.Eng.

I'll agree to all of that. Your 6 friends really must not have taken advantage of their engineering opportunities. Coming from someone who's seen a large number of the ways to get involved, you have to pretty much TRY to avoid getting involved with anything extra-curricular that Engineering has to offer. That is, I can tell you that there are several opportunities each year to make connections provincially and nationally, with students and with professionals, and some of these openings are not even filled to their full capacity because people ignore these opportunities (or else the applicants trying to apply are doing so for the wrong reasons entirely, which is a whole different all game).

In some programs, you "doop" yourself by not breaking out of your shell, and getting serious.

Originally Posted by Incognitus

To get a P.Eng, you need a certain body of knowledge (Essentially, your B.Eng), but you must also have worked as a "full blown engineer" (an internship, but as far as I see it, it's the same thing) for 2-4 years, which requires testing your mettle and landing the job in the first place (which requires you set yourself apart, etc. as I said in the last post). And then you need to prove you've survived all that by writing a comprehensive exam.

Just wanted to point out that in order to be considered for your P.Eng you have to have a full 4 years of experience and not 2-4 years. The 4 years can include experience you get before graduation but only up to a certain amount (I think 12 months).

Originally Posted by ingénieur.xo

Just wanted to point out that in order to be considered for your P.Eng you have to have a full 4 years of experience and not 2-4 years. The 4 years can include experience you get before graduation but only up to a certain amount (I think 12 months).

4 years is the standard in Ontario (but for people willing to work say, out west, it could be as little as 2). Nothing is to stop people from going to Manitoba, working for 2 years, getting a P.Eng and then moving back here to work.

Originally Posted by Incognitus

Reading some of the responses to this...I can't believe how misguided some of them are. Here are my two cents:

I've known people from just about every walk of life during my academic career. Some in 'job-finders' programs, that offer practical training/work experience like Engineering, or Med Rad Sci, and others in "useless" programs like Humanities or *gasp* Multimedia.

However, I know plenty of engineers (a quick count on my fingers yields 6) who are currently working fast food, and I know many humanities students who went on to lead very successful careers (including, again, 6 or 7 who went into law).

To everyone (not just the OP): The problem is, your piece of paper is absolutely worthless. It truly is. There is no recipe for success, and unfortunately no program for it either. Anyone who's truly done their research would know that times are tough and, with more people attending and finishing university (just look at the enrollment this year for example), jobs are harder to come by.

It boils down to what you learn by being here. If you honestly need to be in multimedia, and you don't feel you can learn what you're learning on your own, then the bottom line is, you're not being duped. This includes the technical skills, academic skills, or even people skills.

If you're just sitting in classes, learning how to use a computer, and some software that you knew how to use since you were in Grade 10, then I'm sorry to say you're wasting your money. If however, you're networking, making connections and learning a craft that you absolutely love, this will shine through.

This goes for every program: To any engineers, beware, the job market stinks right now. You really need to polish up your resume/CV, and apply absolutely everywhere to get a job. Having an engineering degree really isn't enough, because there are more than enough grads with such a degree. Instead, you need to show them what sets you apart...and if you're not making a name for yourself, not truly showing what you're made of, then I'm sorry to say, you're being duped too.


Take home point: Make a name for yourself! Your education is a tool, not a guarantee. Your piece of paper doesn't actually mean anything... Use your skills to make your own success.

Those people who work fast food after graduation arent there because of a shitty job market, they're there because they have no idea how to get a job. There are plenty of jobs that anyone can get that frankly arent great but they're a hell of a lot better than fast food. Construction, factory, specialized vehicle driving (Trucks with air brakes that require a DZ), just to name a few. My point is there is no excuse for having to work fast food if you really dont want to.

Just don't be an awkward nerd, get some social skills, get off your ass and be determined to find a job. You will find one. Very few fields care about your GPA. They want to be able to sit in a room with you for 8 hours a day.

Finish your degree. Its a lot more than a specific test of your knowledge. It shows you committed and dedicated yourself and saw that degree through.

Originally Posted by MasterFett

Just don't be an awkward nerd, get some social skills, get off your ass and be determined to find a job. You will find one. Very few fields care about your GPA. They want to be able to sit in a room with you for 8 hours a day.

Finish your degree. Its a lot more than a specific test of your knowledge. It shows you committed and dedicated yourself and saw that degree through.

That's not true. "Awkward nerds" as you call them, can set themselves apart from the group in many ways you wouldn't consider "social" .

Originally Posted by thedog123123

I picked a useful degree with a lot job openings. Did my research ahead of time.

and then NASA gets shut down.