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Survey on the McMaster Student Absence Form

 
Old 03-31-2013 at 04:09 PM   #16
starfish
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Yep. Sad, but true. That's why there isn't an easy answer. The MSAF does make cheating easier, though, which sends the wrong message. With or without it though, people will find ways to cheat the system and cheapen your degree.
Universities are becoming the new high schools.
Old 03-31-2013 at 05:23 PM   #17
RyanC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starfish View Post
Yep. Sad, but true. That's why there isn't an easy answer. The MSAF does make cheating easier, though, which sends the wrong message. With or without it though, people will find ways to cheat the system and cheapen your degree.
Universities are becoming the new high schools.
It makes cheating yourself easier. Who are you to say what is legitimate or not? Anyone who agrees with the removal of the MSAF is essentially supporting that premise that their 'absences' are not legitimate. Like I said before: MSAF for legitimate matters helps people who are in trouble with illness or extenuating circumstances, it hurts people who defer assignments and grade weighting to exams (usually), and has absolutely no effect on students who don't use it. The pros and cons balance out.

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Old 03-31-2013 at 06:40 PM   #18
starfish
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Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
It makes cheating yourself easier. Who are you to say what is legitimate or not? Anyone who agrees with the removal of the MSAF is essentially supporting that premise that their 'absences' are not legitimate. Like I said before: MSAF for legitimate matters helps people who are in trouble with illness or extenuating circumstances, it hurts people who defer assignments and grade weighting to exams (usually), and has absolutely no effect on students who don't use it. The pros and cons balance out.
I don't actually believe the MSAF should be eliminated and I certainly wouldn't fight for or sign a petition to try to remove it, but I also wouldn't really care or fight to keep it. I'm not a student at Mac anymore so it doesn't really matter, but that has been my opinion pretty much since it started. Actually that's a lie...when it was during the H1N1 thing I thought it was an excellent idea, because it was primarily used by people who had viral infections that could be easily spread. After that all ended, then I was ambivalent

I disagree that it usually hurts people who defer things. It really depends on the circumstances and I don't think you can make a blanket statement either way, but whether it hurts you or gives you an advantage, it takes away the "even playing field".

And if you're just using it to take the easy way out, ie because you didn't study enough or something like that, that's not a legitimate reason nor is it what the MSAF was meant for. You might think poor time management is legitimate, and that's fine, but I disagree. I also disagree that it has no effect on students who don't use it.

As it stands though, there is nothing to keep people from using it in these situations...except perhaps an individual's sense/idea of academic integrity. Really, with or without the MSAF the integrity of universities is sliding, hence my ambivalence. (That's what I meant about universities becoming the new high schools).

What exactly did you mean by "It makes cheating yourself easier"? I'm not sure I understood that correctly.
Old 03-31-2013 at 08:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starfish View Post
I disagree that it usually hurts people who defer things. It really depends on the circumstances and I don't think you can make a blanket statement either way, but whether it hurts you or gives you an advantage, it takes away the "even playing field".

What exactly did you mean by "It makes cheating yourself easier"? I'm not sure I understood that correctly.
"It makes cheating yourself easier" - By this I think Ryan meant that you are deferring the midterm because you couldn't prepare for it in time, but hey there is no MSAF in real work life where you can defer your work for a later time. So eventually poor time management skills will catch on to the person if he doesn't want to learn them now while he is paying for it.

Coming back to the "even playing field" part: Class at a university is not really an even playing field if you think about it. Some kids are naturally gifted while some are not so gifted like myself. I can work really hard, spend a lot of time and yet I won't be able to understand what the prof is talking about or what the author of the book is trying to saying, at first go. Whereas some of my peers can absorb this stuff right away and spend the extra time, that I have been using on understanding the same course, on some other course. And this just gets very complicated from here on because obviously some kids have to be super smart, some - average and some - not so smart. That's the way life is - not fair. Not an even playing field.

(This is just my opinion and I shared it with you because if I am not wrong, its the second or third time you're advocating for MSAF being unfair and taking away the "even playing field" from the "honest" kids)

Also MSAF is not really the only thing that's flawed in our university. There are tons of other things. For example, a peer of mine is enrolled with SAS at McMaster based on a Doctor's note. The note says that he has a learning disability. So he gets like 1 hr - 1.5 hrs extra on most exams. Now this is a guy who inhales knowledge. He's super smart, and when you ask him why he is still enrolled with CSD, he says that he has a note from his doctor that he got in middle school and his learning disability is fine now but the school doesn't really cross check this, so why not take advantage?

EDIT: Grammar

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Old 03-31-2013 at 08:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikJ View Post
"It makes cheating yourself easier" - By this I think Ryan meant that you are deferring the midterm because you couldn't prepare for it in time, but hey there is no MSAF in real work life where you can defer your work for a later time. So eventually poor time management skills will catch on to the person if he doesn't want to learn them now while he is paying for it.

Coming back to the "even playing field" part: Class at a university is not really an even playing field if you think about it. Some kids are naturally gifted while some are not so gifted like myself. I can work really hard, spend a lot of time and yet I won't be able to understand what the prof is talking about or what the author of the book is trying to saying, at first go. Whereas some of my peers can absorb this stuff right away and spend the extra time, that I have been using on understanding the same course, on some other course. And this just gets very complicated from here on because obviously some kids have to be super smart, some - average and some - not so smart. That's the way life is - not fair. Not an even playing field.

(This is just my opinion and I shared it with you because if I am not wrong, its the second or third time you're advocating for MSAF being unfair and taking away the "even playing field" from the "honest" kids)

Also MSAF is not really the only thing that's flawed in our university. There are tons of other things. For example, a peer of mine is enrolled with SAS at McMaster based on a Doctor's note. The note says that he has a learning disability. So he gets like 1 hr - 1.5 hrs extra on most exams. Now this is a guy who inhales knowledge. He's super smart, and when you ask him why he is still enrolled with CSD, he says that he has a note from his doctor that he got in middle school and his learning disability is fine now but the school doesn't really cross check this, so why not take advantage?

EDIT: Grammar
Hmm..I think what I mean by an "even playing field" is extrinsic factors. Like, all else being equal (ie if everyone is on a level playing field), some people will naturally do better than others at some things and worse at others, just depending on the person. I don't mean that everyone should be able to perform at the same level in all areas of school (or life, for that matter). Like I said before, there isn't really a way to quantify the effects the MSAF has. Maybe overall the effect does "cancel out" most of the time. I don't know. I do have a hard time believing that it cancels out for every student, though.

I definitely agree that MSAF isn't the only thing that's flawed, and whether or not the MSAF exists, there will be larger things contributing to unfairness/academic dishonesty that should be addressed with a higher priority. For example, the peer that you referred to, he's cheating the system. If he's as smart as you say, the extra time on exams probably doesn't really benefit him too much because he prob doesn't need it, but there are some exams that are deliberately made so that people can't finish it in the set amount of time given, and he would definitely have an advantage there. However, the real problem is that people like him make everyone suspicious of people who really do have learning disabilities (or other disabilities/conditions) that require accommodations. Administrators and profs tend to assume that any student needing an accommodation is either cheating the system or doesn't deserve to be in university. I've actually heard professors/IAs say this and I've seen it in their attitudes as well. They're not willing to give the necessary accommodations to students who need them, and despite the university's regulations, they have quite a bit of leeway in this respect.

That was a bit of an off-topic tangent, but that's an issue I have a rather strong opinion on (rather than the MSAF which I'm fairly ambivalent towards) because of the effect it has on others, not only in terms of academics, but also stigma and attitudes surrounding the vast majority of issues that lead to someone requiring an accommodation.

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Old 03-31-2013 at 10:22 PM   #21
prabeast
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On the survey, there should be an option for "just wanted to skip the assignment." I honestly thought that was the whole point of the MSAF, just so you can have the one break -- recognizing that every student tends to have a super busy time, and it's the one free pass to kind of alleviate students in the stressful time (the risk always is a more heavily graded final).

I didn't even know it was supposed to be used for legitimate purposes until I actually filled one out. For illnesses, deaths, etc., isn't protocol to go to the faculty office and get an official pass?
Old 03-31-2013 at 10:37 PM   #22
starfish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prabeast View Post
On the survey, there should be an option for "just wanted to skip the assignment." I honestly thought that was the whole point of the MSAF, just so you can have the one break -- recognizing that every student tends to have a super busy time, and it's the one free pass to kind of alleviate students in the stressful time (the risk always is a more heavily graded final).

I didn't even know it was supposed to be used for legitimate purposes until I actually filled one out. For illnesses, deaths, etc., isn't protocol to go to the faculty office and get an official pass?
Lol yes, that is protocol, but when there was the whole swine flu thing, tons of people were getting sick and they didn't want people to come to school or go to the doctor to get a note, because then they'd just spread the virus more, so they implemented the H1N1 self-reporting system. It asked about the flu symptoms (are you coughing, do you have a fever, etc) in about three questions, and then you got out of everything you had to do for a certain amount of time (I don't remember how long).
Afterwards, they made that into MSAF, with the reasoning being that it's easier for everyone involved if you don't need to get a doctor's note when you're sick.
Old 04-01-2013 at 07:06 PM   #23
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