As I'm bored, I'm going to post a topic that will no doubt be controversial and question people's beliefs and viewpoints.

Disclaimer: Do not get personal. If you wish to post, do so constructively. Furthermore, do not take offense if people attack your viewpoint with proper rhetoric. This is a discussion: your opinions will be put to the test by those who do not agree with it. If you can come in her open minded, consider everyone's thoughts, then by all means engage us!

Recently, I've stumbled upon many discussions online about US Military personnel who are deserting their posts and coming to Canada to seek refuge status. Canada has denied pretty much all claims, with the exception of one person.

The US Army (pretty much all the cases are from the Army) recognizes the rights of individuals who claim that they are conscientious objectors due to religious or moral grounds. However, this is put through a process where a military board determines the legitimacy of the claims.

I have heard different opinions about the CO process, but the general trend is that the Army is quite reasonable with this. The people who have deserted the Army are generally those who have been turned down for this status, and have left their post and their country.

---

One of the cases that is forefront in my mind is the case of Jeremy Hinzman. He enlisted in the US Army, and joined the 82nd Airborne Division as a Paratrooper, did a tour in Afghanistan as a Cook, and before his unit was shipped to Iraq he fled across the border with his family.

Hinzman's motive for leaving was that he subscribes to Buddhist beliefs and did not agree with the war in Iraq. He was denied CO status, but was kept in non-combat roles, even in an Airborne Infantry unit.

The quirks of the case come when analyzing his actions.

First of all, he joined the Army due to a "romantic" idea of life in the Military. He realized during Basic Training that he did not like the idea of killing others. Yet, he signed up to be a paratrooper, went through combat training, jump school etc.

Second, he admitted that he was largely motivated by the financial incentives of being in the Military. His education was paid for by the Army, he signed up to receive the signing bonus, and went to Jump School (which is after basic) which commands a $6000 bonus itself.

Third, he claims that he is a Buddhist adherent, yet still made his decisions motivated by the financial reasons: a very un-Buddhist thing to do.

Fourth, he has sensationalized his life: become the poster boy for anti-war activities, and is being hailed as an American War hero for his actions.

--- MY THOUGHTS ---

I'm disgusted by him. I feel as if he is cowardly, and selfish. Here's why:

1) The American Army is a volunteer force.
2) He keeps appealing his decisions in Canada, using up my tax dollars. He does not pay taxes to Canada, so it's not his problem.
3) The Army paid for his school, threw lots of money at him, and spent a lot of money training him. They went as far as to keep him out of a combat role (he was a cook), and yet he still left his post.
4) He is being hailed as a hero, and has been pictured at Canada's WWII memorial etc. This is disgusting to me. Those people on the memorial, and any other vet, gave up their jobs and lives to fight in a war that affected the World.
5) A good soldier does not like killing, but does so to preserve life. Hinzman's claim to be against killing does not hold much court because his brothers-in-arms still did the duty they signed up to do.
6) WHY DID HE NOT QUIT OR SEEK TRANSFER TO ANOTHER UNIT! Even in his own stories, the only effort he made was to register as a CO.
7) Why is he wasting so much taxpayer money? American and Canadian.

I'll add more later to defend my views as people add to the conversation!

Cheers.

Let me first state that I see myself as being anti-war.

But I do not agree with Hinzman's actions for what Rohan mentioned: he contradicts his own beliefs, is living here as a refugee, and he used the army to get what he wanted.

Just. ugh. There are plenty of people internationally that are true refugees. Claiming to be so is insulting to the persons whose life is actually in danger.

Yeah, let me say that I am not going to talk about the war itself or any of my ideologies relating to that... simply the actions of these deserters who are being paraded as heroes.

I can understand 'draft dodging' in a time of conscription...

But the mere fact that he signed up... why does it conflict with his buddhist beliefs (even though it seems to me as if he`s simply looking for an excuse) only when it`s a time of war? Why sign up in the first place if it goes against your beliefs?

I know it isn`t like this...but it really seems as though the educational and financial benefits of joining the military are payment for military service. How can he, in good buddhist conscience, accept payment and then not provide the service? (which as you noted, they are even being accomodating to the guy, giving him a position as cook)

So is this the chain of events?

Guy joins military, thanks in part to propaganda and benefits provided by massive U.S. government military spending.

Guy realizes that he's been enlisted to assist in the slaughter of defenseless civilians in the middle east, with the disapproval of almost the entire world, for what amounts to access to resources and an economic boost to corporate America. Perhaps he didn't have the last insight.

Guy flees the army to Canada.

A few McMaster students disapprove because he's wasting our tax dollars, or being wishy-washy?

No, at least one of those McMaster students disapprove because he's not doing what he was paid to do.

Furthermore, he's wasting tax dollars etc etc.

Originally Posted by dukeb

So is this the chain of events?

Guy joins military, thanks in part to propaganda and benefits provided by massive U.S. government military spending.

Guy realizes that he's been enlisted to assist in the slaughter of defenseless civilians in the middle east, with the disapproval of almost the entire world, for what amounts to access to resources and an economic boost to corporate America. Perhaps he didn't have the last insight.

Guy flees the army to Canada.

A few McMaster students disapprove because he's wasting our tax dollars, or being wishy-washy?

The promotional videos Americas army uses does not promote hate in any way, it does glorify the army in certain ways. if you saw that as a propaganda, so is the commercial you see telling you to live a healthier life by not smoking and so on. thats a government propaganda telling you what not to do. You should also realize that people are given all the benefits and pensions listed when they sign up to become a soldier in the america's army.

As for your comment of slaughtering of defenceless civilians, you should probably realize that many of the deaths were not caused by the american soldiers but by fundamentalist suicide attacks. you cant use general death statistics to say that American soldiers go around killing people for no reason. You should also know that Soldiers have rules of engagements. they dont start shooting until they are shot at, you should probably go there yourself and feel how it feels likes to have a gun aimed at you and you cant shoot at him/her.

I know this is a typical troops supporter talk but you should also take it into account that if it wasnt for the Canadian and American Soldiers you would not have the freedom to even write on this forum. you should also thank every soldier defending our land air and sea.

he's not doing what he was paid to do.

What is your opinion? That he joined the army purposely to gain the benefits, planning to desert from the beginning?

Otherwise, it's not reasonable to say that this guy's financial contract with the U.S. government is more important than his moral choice not to take part in killing people, over 100,000 of whom have been civilians.

There were thousands of war resisters and deserters during the Vietnam War, which involved killing millions of civilians. Would you also have objected to those deserters?

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that people can be misguided by military propaganda, and along with the clear benefits of joining the military, make the decision to enlist without being fully aware of the moral consequences.

All of the statistics I mentioned are readily available on the Vietnam War and Iraq War wikipedia pages, both of which cite sources thoroughly. This includes detailed information about popular opposition to the war, not to mention the illegality of it. The Iraq War is clear terrorism by the definition of the word.

Originally Posted by Junner

As for your comment of slaughtering of defenceless civilians, you should probably realize that many of the deaths were not caused by the american soldiers but by fundamentalist suicide attacks. you cant use general death statistics to say that American soldiers go around killing people for no reason. You should also know that Soldiers have rules of engagements. they dont start shooting until they are shot at, you should probably go there yourself and feel how it feels likes to have a gun aimed at you and you cant shoot at him/her.

I know this is a typical troops supporter talk but you should also take it into account that if it wasnt for the Canadian and American Soldiers you would not have the freedom to even write on this forum. you should also thank every soldier defending our land air and sea.

Look, I don't mean to personally attack people who join the military, or even people who go to Iraq. There is a lot of incentive to join the military, as has been mentioned. There has also been undeniable propaganda by the government: take the weapons of mass destruction scare, and claims that the invasion was supported by Iraqi people, for example. The invasion as a whole is condemnable though.

I'd also suggest that the insurgent attacks that you mentioned have greatly increased as a direct result of U.S. occupation.

Here you go, a reference for the body count from 2003-2005, which was 24,865 civilians. 37% of civilian deaths during that period were kills by the U.S. military.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org /analy...s-releases/12/

Originally Posted by dukeb

What is your opinion? That he joined the army purposely to gain the benefits, planning to desert from the beginning?

No, I'm saying what kind of buffoon doesn't know the risks of joining the army? Pow pow, guns go boom? If he was really so morally against war, then he should have been morally against even the slight possibility of being in that situation.

Or stealing, y'know whatever floats your boat.

I mean, would an pro-lifer sign up to work in an abortion clinic? Then refuse to work?

No...that would make them an idiot, not an american hero...particularly if they were 'paid up front.'

Originally Posted by Junner

The promotional videos Americas army uses does not promote hate in any way, it does glorify the army in certain ways. if you saw that as a propaganda, so is the commercial you see telling you to live a healthier life by not smoking and so on. thats a government propaganda telling you what not to do. You should also realize that people are given all the benefits and pensions listed when they sign up to become a soldier in the America's army.

What are your views on G Dyer's "Anybody's Son will do"?. Being in Polisci I have a feeling you might have come across it sometime or the other. It is a known fact that the Army disseminates racist and more often then not entirely inaccurate information to recruits during basic training and during combat operation briefings to motivate them. They paint the foreign country as people of apparently inferior culture and psyche and the holier then thou Americans are there to "liberate" them! That is exactly the reason you have infamous incidents where Army Soldiers have gone on rampages raping and killing civilians. I don't have a link for it but there was one in Fallujah a couple of years ago where after a suicide bombing enraged a small group of soldiers they went on a rampage in the neighborhood, they were courtmartialled and got minor jail times if I'm not wrong and not the same sentence they would have gotten if they had done the same to American Citizens.

That is one of the main reasons why American soldiers are in a psychological wreck. They clearly see that there was absolutely no reason for invading Iraq(If I concede that Afghanistan in 2001 was a natural and probably valid reaction) out of the blue. The people clearly don't want them there, Saddam was a old school horrible dictator but things are actually worse now there is general anarchy and the economy is dead and people are starving and berift from medical supplies. And as for Democracy, Soldiers who spend a few months in that region will realize that Democracy is rather impossible in that country. I won't go into the Sunni/Shia/Kurd Divide but look it up!

The Army entices people with financial benefits and for alot of teenagers a chance to do something with their lives if they aren't going to college! But what they try and "turn them into" is absolutely horrible!

Iraq is a mess and I personally see no solution for it, whatever you see painted in the media the whole liberating the people and bringing in democracy nonsense; Its utter BS. There is no way that country can function on a whole under a democracy, there are far too many variables! Usa will eventually leave and will have f-d up the lives of an entire generation of people!

Same with Afghanistan, The tribal mentality is not something you can democratize by waving a wand! Once again USA will leave and there will be a 1990's esque Civil War with the Talibans once again coming into Power.

That's just the way the sociopolitical demographics in that area are like, And USA knew very well!

Sooner or later the Soldiers are realizing that as well!

Edit: That being said the problem here is: What do the soldiers do when the realize they no longer want to go to Iraq and serve in a life threatening environment where there is a huge risk of killing civilians. Last year in peace studies we had Canadian soldiers come over after a term of duty in Afghanistan and showed us how difficult it is for them to differentiate between an "insurgent" vehicle or a regular civilian vehicle. They gave us an example where they had no choice but to shoot at a Car after it apparently didn't get their signal to stop at a "hidden" checkpoint. That Car had civilians in it. Similarly they told us about the frustration and angst they suffered through when their friends were shot by snipers or Bombings. They are in a situation they have no control over nor can they get out of it and alot of them are slowly losing touch with the "rationale" given to them for the war after being there for 6 or more years! Utter Utter Mess.

Originally Posted by dukeb

Here you go, a reference for the body count from 2003-2005, which was 24,865 civilians. 37% of civilian deaths during that period were kills by the U.S. military.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org /analy...s-releases/12/

Have you ever taken statistics by any chance? (I'm not sure we've met before and I don't know what program/year you're in) In particular, their applications to epidemiology and scientific method.

One of the first 'laws' of statistics is that they are misleading. If I do some mathematical witchcraft, I can artificially inflate or deflate statistics on the basis of them being probabilistic measures (namely...if you did the same study twice, you'd get a different number).

But for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume American soldiers are directly responsible for 37%, that is 0.37 * 24,865 = 9200.05 people (see? Already statistics is rearing its ugly head, lol).

What does this say about their motives? How many civilians own guns for self defense? How many are liable to point these guns at strange men, and perhaps even fire?

How many innocent bystanders are unintentionally caught in the crossfire?

If I exclude these measures, which in statistics it is fairgame to 'include' larger populations and group things differently (as I said, mathematical witchcraft), watch how drastically this number will drop.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

G Dyer's "Anybody's Son will do"

So that basically = Anti-flag's "Anatomy of Your Enemy"? (lyrics here)

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Have you ever taken statistics by any chance? (I'm not sure we've met before and I don't know what program/year you're in) In particular, their applications to epidemiology and scientific method.

One of the first 'laws' of statistics is that they are misleading. If I do some mathematical witchcraft, I can artificially inflate or deflate statistics on the basis of them being probabilistic measures (namely...if you did the same study twice, you'd get a different number).

But for the purpose of this discussion, let's assume American soldiers are directly responsible for 37%, that is 0.37 * 24,865 = 9200.05 people (see? Already statistics is rearing its ugly head, lol).

What does this say about their motives? How many civilians own guns for self defense? How many are liable to point these guns at strange men, and perhaps even fire?

How many innocent bystanders are unintentionally caught in the crossfire?

If I exclude these measures, which in statistics it is fairgame to 'include' larger populations and group things differently (as I said, mathematical witchcraft), watch how drastically this number will drop.

I think we would agree that nothing remotely approaching science can be applied to large scale human interactions like politics and war. Above the level of physics, scientific investigation very quickly diminishes in usefulness. By the time you get to the scope of an entire human being, science has pretty well nothing to say.

But, if i can borrow the way Chomsky puts it: the aggressor, in this case the U.S., has the burden of proof when going to war. For example, if a policeman stops a mugger (in the act of mugging) by disarming him and knocking him down, then that level of force used would be justified in my opinion. It's very difficult to justify an invasion of a country, an action that almost always leads to civilian deaths. The UN didn't think the Iraq invasion was justified, and neither did much of the rest of the world.

I'd also agree with you when you say that these deserters were making an 'idiotic' choice by joining the military. But, I wouldn't be as quick to blame them, for reasons already mentioned. I'd also add that media bias in the U.S. is significant. So, if people who have joined the military are learning to think for themselves -- and subsequently deserting the military -- then I'm in full support of that.

My opinion on this whole thing is that I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to judge someone in this situation. We can only imagine the kinds of things these people hear, see and have to take part in.
I'm not saying all soldiers are above the law or anything like that.. But I don't think we should be so quick to judge people who are giving up so much for us. It's easy to sit at our computers and say "This man is a coward". It's much more difficult to look into the reasons why he might have done what he did, how he feels, and what made him feel this way.
I don't know what goes on over there. Some soldiers kill themselves; that's how bad it is. We all have our opinions of course, but I don't think any of us are in any place to judge these people..