Alright so I'm In first year life sci having a difficult time deciding between these two second year programs. My first question would be whats a safe mark to get into each I have around a ten, worst case scenario nine after exams. I'd also like to know about job opportunities coming from each program and maybe the differences and similarities in each program especially in the third and fourth years. And which program would best prepare a student for the mcat and/or pcat. Iv also heard its easier to go from chembio to biochem any validity to that. Kind of a loaded question so answering any aspect is cool.

I'm really in the dark to anything second year so any links or information is much appreciated.

That average should be okay for both programs, but you never really know for sure.

Job opportunities are similar - I think chembio might be a bit more broad because there's more of a chemistry basis (and in the workforce biochem grads outnumber chem or chembio grads by a gazillion to one ). Really though, going into one vs the other is not going to significantly limit your job opportunities, unless you're looking to do a job with pure chem or something.

Both programs prepare well for MCAT and PCAT. Plenty of people from both programs have gone on to med school and pharmacy school. Both programs are equally weak in terms of math (which is on PCAT) and physics (which is on MCAT), but they're fine for bio and chem.

If you're switching after second year then there isn't much of a difference in switching between the programs. If you switch into biochem you need to take 2L06 to catch up; if you switch into chembio you need 2Q03+2L03 to catch up. So, 6 units each way. Double check that because things might have changed in the last few years, but it shouldn't be a huge difference.

In general I'd recommend the specializations in biochem over the core program, unless you're looking to minor in something else and need the elective space.

Originally Posted by starfish

That average should be okay for both programs, but you never really know for sure.

Job opportunities are similar - I think chembio might be a bit more broad because there's more of a chemistry basis (and in the workforce biochem grads outnumber chem or chembio grads by a gazillion to one ). Really though, going into one vs the other is not going to significantly limit your job opportunities, unless you're looking to do a job with pure chem or something.

Both programs prepare well for MCAT and PCAT. Plenty of people from both programs have gone on to med school and pharmacy school. Both programs are equally weak in terms of math (which is on PCAT) and physics (which is on MCAT), but they're fine for bio and chem.

If you're switching after second year then there isn't much of a difference in switching between the programs. If you switch into biochem you need to take 2L06 to catch up; if you switch into chembio you need 2Q03+2L03 to catch up. So, 6 units each way. Double check that because things might have changed in the last few years, but it shouldn't be a huge difference.

In general I'd recommend the specializations in biochem over the core program, unless you're looking to minor in something else and need the elective space.

Great reply, any specific reason for the recommendation ?

Originally Posted by Mike.yoh

Great reply, any specific reason for the recommendation ?

You learn more and are better prepared for a wider variety of jobs - you have more marketable skills and get to know more profs (which can help with employment opportunities and reference letters)

I'm graduating from Biochem and I know people in both programs. Your marks are fine to get into Biochem. Chem Bio might depend on the applicant pool for this year, but I'd say you have a decent chance. As starfish mentioned, it would be easier to switch from Chem Bio to Biochem than the other way around.

In 2nd year the programs take similar courses, Biochem has more electives though. Afterwards they diverge a bit more. In 3rd in 4th year Biochem you continue to have more flexibility and electives, all you need to do is take Metabolism, Stem Cells and then a certain amount from the course list. Can't tell you too much about chem bio but they seem to have pretty specific courses e.g. spectroscopy, and generally there's a lot to do with small molecules and synthesis?

I am in the biomed research specialization which basically means you have to do a 3rd year project (or some lab course) and a 4th year thesis, but I think you can still do these without being in the specialization. The 3rd year project can let you see what it's like to work in a lab, so if you end up hating research then you wouldn't have to be stuck in a 4th year thesis (I know some people who ended up dropping out of thesis projects because they didn't like it). However my research experience was very positive, the biochem department has great faculty and doing a thesis just feels like a proper culmination of undergrad. Personally I loved it over taking courses, I learned a lot more than I could have learned in a lecture, and you will easily get a reference letter from your supervisor assuming you do your job properly.

Both programs have thesis options and co-op options. Chem Bio is much smaller (like ~30 vs. ~200 in Biochem) and they are all tight with each other, if that is important to you. As for MCAT/PCAT, all you really need is your 1st year knowledge and orgo, which you take in both programs. Again, people from both programs have gone into pharmacy/med. Anyway, I can't recommend one over the other as it comes down to what you want to learn. I didn't go into Chem Bio because it seemed too niche and I didn't enjoy first year chemistry that much. I will tell you that both programs are strong especially compared to the bio department which I've always found to be weak and unorganized

i dont think 9 is high enough for either program anymore.

yea...no, love yourself, don't go biochem

One of my friends is currently in Chem Bio & his take on the program has been mixed. He told me about a lab-based inquiry course which every chem bio student has to take (taught by the director of the program) and he has said the drop out rate of the program is ~50% due to this course. Many chem bio students complain about it and switch programs, look into it. The program has a tremendous amount of application and it's recommended that you have a 11 in bio 1a03/1m03 and chem 1a03/1aa3. There is a lot of competition for this program so the avg is quite high (10ish) so getting a higher C.A. should be your priority. Physics 1B03-1BB3 can come in handy due to the conceptual q's asked in these courses so it's recommended that you do well in these courses to go into chem bio. The program is small so you will know your profs which is a benefit. If you put your mind to it and you have a genuine interest in the program, you can do well. Hope this helps.

Any reasoning to this ?

Originally Posted by whsdd123

yea...no, love yourself, don't go biochem

Lol speak on it

Originally Posted by DarkHalo

I'm graduating from Biochem and I know people in both programs. Your marks are fine to get into Biochem. Chem Bio might depend on the applicant pool for this year, but I'd say you have a decent chance. As starfish mentioned, it would be easier to switch from Chem Bio to Biochem than the other way around.

In 2nd year the programs take similar courses, Biochem has more electives though. Afterwards they diverge a bit more. In 3rd in 4th year Biochem you continue to have more flexibility and electives, all you need to do is take Metabolism, Stem Cells and then a certain amount from the course list. Can't tell you too much about chem bio but they seem to have pretty specific courses e.g. spectroscopy, and generally there's a lot to do with small molecules and synthesis?

I am in the biomed research specialization which basically means you have to do a 3rd year project (or some lab course) and a 4th year thesis, but I think you can still do these without being in the specialization. The 3rd year project can let you see what it's like to work in a lab, so if you end up hating research then you wouldn't have to be stuck in a 4th year thesis (I know some people who ended up dropping out of thesis projects because they didn't like it). However my research experience was very positive, the biochem department has great faculty and doing a thesis just feels like a proper culmination of undergrad. Personally I loved it over taking courses, I learned a lot more than I could have learned in a lecture, and you will easily get a reference letter from your supervisor assuming you do your job properly.

Both programs have thesis options and co-op options. Chem Bio is much smaller (like ~30 vs. ~200 in Biochem) and they are all tight with each other, if that is important to you. As for MCAT/PCAT, all you really need is your 1st year knowledge and orgo, which you take in both programs. Again, people from both programs have gone into pharmacy/med. Anyway, I can't recommend one over the other as it comes down to what you want to learn. I didn't go into Chem Bio because it seemed too niche and I didn't enjoy first year chemistry that much. I will tell you that both programs are strong especially compared to the bio department which I've always found to be weak and unorganized

Great reply, and I couldn't agree more about the bio department. If you don't mind could you go into the thesis and co-op aspects of each program, I know your in biochem so chembio only as much as you know off the top of your head.

They've changed Biochem since I started in the program, for thesis I believe you now have a 9 unit or 15 unit option. Chem bio I think you just do a 9 unit thesis. I did it as a 12 unit but honestly they are all the same amount of work, it's just a matter of much you want it to count. They've also changed it so you apparently "rank" professors that you want to work with rather than contact them and try to secure a position independently... but I would personally still recommend actually emailing professors with a letter of interest/resume/transcripts.

Obviously what you work on for your thesis project is going to vary depending on what lab you are working in, but I think I averaged 5 hours per day in lab (a lot of that was just me on the computer while I waited for a 1 hour incubation or whatever though).

I got into the co-op program but opted not to go. I was able to find a lab job in the summer after my 2nd year, and it was pretty easy for me to secure later positions by having that experience. Co-op helps you to get your foot in the door, but a lot of co-op students end up working in academia for their work term anyway. However there is a chance you can find jobs in industry, like at Sanofi, if you try hard enough. From I understand the science co-op office isn't all that helpful in finding you a position for your work term... this isn't Waterloo after all.