Thursday, March 4th
4:00pm in the Mills Library Connection Centre (First Floor Mills Library)
Come join social planner Deidre Pike as she explains ways we can create positive spaces for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and queer community.

I wasn't aware that the only types of spaces Mac has for the LGBTQ Community are of the negative variety. What is the purpose of this? I always thought that Mac was gay-friendly.

Originally Posted by Goce

I wasn't aware that the only types of spaces Mac has for the LGBTQ Community are of the negative variety. What is the purpose of this? I always thought that Mac was gay-friendly.

I think the definition of space here is more along the lines of "How can we as people & a collective campus make the social environment more inclusive for LGBTQ community"

As a random example saying "That's so gay" is offensive to people from that background even if we don't mean it. I covered a bit of this stuff as part of my Peer Conduct Board training.

Although McMaster may appear to be a positive space for the LGBTQ community. It can be largely argued and viewed as very hetero-normative. For example, how often do you see a heterosexual couple holding hands vs. a gay couple holding hands? Is it because there aren't as many gay people or is it that they don't feel comfortable doing so? Huzaifa brings up a good point as people don't always realize that they are offending people with sayings like "that's so gay". I've listened to Deidre Pike in a previous lecture and she is very good at bringing awareness to the topic. She brings up lots of examples that really make you think what kind of society we live in.

Originally Posted by MLSA29

Although McMaster may appear to be a positive space for the LGBTQ community. It can be largely argued and viewed as very hetero-normative. For example, how often do you see a heterosexual couple holding hands vs. a gay couple holding hands? Is it because there aren't as many gay people or is it that they don't feel comfortable doing so? Huzaifa brings up a good point as people don't always realize that they are offending people with sayings like "that's so gay". I've listened to Deidre Pike in a previous lecture and she is very good at bringing awareness to the topic. She brings up lots of examples that really make you think what kind of society we live in.

You make some good points but I also have to question some of what you say. First, I actually don't see many heterosexual couples holding hands in the first place. That is the type of thing you do in elementary and secondary school. I've rarely seen it happen here. Are gay couples afraid of holding hands or do they not want to do it? I wouldn't think twice if I saw two males or two females holding hands - I have other things to worry about.

As for the example of people saying "that's so gay," this is such a weak example of "negative spaces." Words and their meanings evolve over time. When people say something is gay these days they mean something sucks. You have to be highly sensitive to be offended by that. True, it is a crude use of language, but a lot of the words we use now are gutter words. Heck, I have even heard gay people use that expression.

As long as people are not assaulted or verbally harassed for being gay I don't think we have problem.

I'll try and come to the lecture because this is an interesting issue. How long does it run?

http://www.marriageissogay.c om/

Potentially a bit off topic, but I thought some advertising for a good, relevant cause would fit nicely here.

I'm not too sure about how you'd measure how good of a job a school is doing in being inclusive, but just a quick glance at the Wikipedia page for "heteronormativit y" sure doesn't make me think of Mac. And I would be willing to bet that the ratio of gay:straight couples at Mac is pretty close to the ratio of gay:straight couples who hold hands on campus (although obviously there really isn't a great way to measure that).

That said, I would like to check this out. Even if Mac is doing a good job, there's still probably room for improvement.

Originally Posted by Goce

As for the example of people saying "that's so gay," this is such a weak example of "negative spaces." Words and their meanings evolve over time. When people say something is gay these days they mean something sucks. You have to be highly sensitive to be offended by that.

As someone who is openly gay, I get pretty pissed off when I hear someone saying "that's so gay." Most of my other gay friends also find it offensive. If you're saying it because something sucks, the message that comes across to me is that gay people suck. It's in the same level as calling something "retarded." But hell, maybe I just am "highly sensitive" if I'm offended by someone using my orientation to say that something sucks.

Originally Posted by jamescw1234

As someone who is openly gay, I get pretty pissed off when I hear someone saying "that's so gay." Most of my other gay friends also find it offensive. If you're saying it because something sucks, the message that comes across to me is that gay people suck. It's in the same level as calling something "retarded." But hell, maybe I just am "highly sensitive" if I'm offended by someone using my orientation to say that something sucks.

You're missing the point that I was making. The term "gay", much like the term "freak" has adopted more than one meaning. Not only that, the way in which people use the word "gay" has evolved tremendously. First, it started off as something that connoted a carefree, happy "lifestyle." In the 1800s it referred to (heterosexual) prostitution. "Gay" did not imply homosexuality until the 1960s. Today, at least one variant of it's meaning is devoid of sexual context - that something sucks, or is lame. I understand how gay people can be upset, but they have to realize that words evolve. It isn't pleasant when it is used as an alternative way to say something sucks, but that is what it has become.

Moreover, your actual orientation is "homosexual", not "gay." Homosexual is the "proper" term to refer to people that like their own sex.

That said, it is funny that we are discussing this. Just a few minutes ago as I was coming home from school I witnessed anti-gay behaviour. An elderly lady on the bus moved over when a gay man sat next to her, she had this disgusted look on her face. The guy noticed this and told her to fcuk off. She gave him the finger and then moved to another seat. This type of thing is unfortunate, and I am all for eradicating such behaviour. Thankfully, I have yet to see something as devastating at this school.

Actually, when I was collaborating on GLBTQ health issues with QSCC, the coordinator thought the word homosexual was too clinical - like it was some sort of disorder. She preferred GLBTQ/LGBTQ or Queer (which has been reclaimed by the community in order to be more inclusive).

Edit: Regardless of whether a word evolved in a certain way, it doesn't make it appropriate if used in an offensive manner. When certain words have evolved to be reclaimed - such as some previously derogatory racial terms and queer, the usage of the term isn't meant in a derogatory way. On the other hand, using gay as a synonym for stupid is meant to be offensive.

I think the definition of space here is more along the lines of "How can we as people & a collective campus make the social environment more inclusive for LGBTQ community"

I think this is an important thing to consider. While a lot of people are not overtly homophobic, day to day discussions aren't as inclusive as they could be. From a clinical setting, some professionals use the term boyfriend instead of partner. This leads to difficulty because members of the GLBTQ community have specific needs and some individuals are concerned about backlash from some more socially conservative physicians. For instance, many lesbian women are not technically having vaginal-penile intercourse so health care professionals assume that they do not need to get a pap smear until the age of 21. This ignores the fact that HPV can be spread through other means and the absence of a pap smear means that abnormal/pre-cancerous cells will remain undetected.

James, if you don't mind me asking, how do you find Mac in terms of inclusiveness? And are there any areas that you specifically think could be worked on?

I'm from a smallish town (Orangeville, not really small, but definitely not big either), so I found it very inclusive in the sense that I can be on campus without having to hide who I am. And although I don't personally use the QSCC, it is a great resource. I also think that the Positive Space program is great, but I think we need to educate the Mac community that it does exist. I think that if you ask random people on campus if they are aware of it, most people will say no. So I definitely think that the event on Thursday is a great idea to make the general community more aware. So in general I personally think Mac is great in terms of inclusiveness, I can walk around without feeling alienated.

There have been incident reports filed during my studies at Mac, so yes, homophobic incidences do happen on-campus. In the past, it has manifested in a variety of different ways - from homophobic graffiti to unprofessional behaviour by staff (which initiated a mandatory sensitivity training for one of the MSU establishments last year). Many queerphobic incidences go unreported, but they do occur on campus.

One area of improvement we are working on at the QSCC is awareness and education to address transgender issues as many individuals are still unaware of what it means, various concepts and terms, and how to go about interacting with transgendered individuals respectfully.

Clearly this is a topic of great interest to members of the McMaster community! Please consider coming to our event on Thursday and participating in the disucussion

It is good to keep in perspective that language changes, and the words "gay" and "retarded" are not referring to the same thing anymore. The hateful reference is still fresh in our society, so it will still be offensive until people move away from the ideas that made the words derogatory. I'm not defending or chastising it's use, I just think everyone needs to be conscious about it, those who use it and those who defend it.


I dont know how I feel about the LGBTQ positive space stuff. I support complete inclusiveness, but I sometimes question initiatives that single out one group for positive reinforcement. There is always the question of whether you are helping the people who define themselves within that group, or by "helping" them are you suggesting that they are weak and need help. Or by promoting one group are you putting down another group. I'm not saying either way, I just always ask myself these questions.

Actually one thing I noticed is visible on the AVN(anti-violence network) website. They have on their main page "gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, transgendered diversity" as a focus, and I always wondered why they didnt include heterosexual. By leaving it out it somewhat reinforces the idea that there is normal(straight), then there is the others (LGBTQ). I dislike the use of any of those because it suggest that sexuality has to fall within one of a small group of categories instead of realizing it's fluid nature.



As far as the outdated views, it lies within people's personal values, and their views on things. I haven't been able to think of a better way to break a lot of the outdated views then people having a cool friend from any of these groups. It sucks because it puts a lot of pressure on everyone to be friendly and nice, but if everyone did it, it would be really hard to have negative views of any one group of people.

Oh yeah I guess the other thing is since there is a punishment system set up for being openly hateful, it would be good if everyone was vocal about it being bad. I was talking with some guys from class (during tutorial) and they started going on about "homos". Without attacking or judging them, I reminded them that you can get kicked out of school for that shit. Might not change their views, but others wont have to deal with over hearing that stuff.


I wanted to come out to the meeting but I had an exam : (


Is there anything further going on about this stuff?



(oh yeah and from what I over hear, a lot of the young men on campus, especially first years are homophobic and see nothing wrong with hating gay people, which boggles my mind.)

The meeting is on Thursday at 4 PM. You haven't missed it.

From what I've heard, Deirdre Pike of Social Planning and Research Council will be there. She's a great speaker.