Yes there was a graph from 2007 shown in class that discussed how women attempt suicide more so than males, but are not successful, whereas men attempt it less, but are more successful . i'm sure you can google it. it also stated the reason being the way they attempted, where women usually did things like cutting and overdosing, things that have the chance of turning back on, whereas males did things like jumping off things, hanging, and shotting themselves

Bill Burr on Women's Rights:

bullets hurt me too, hahaha.

took me exactly 30 seconds to like that clip. XD

Originally Posted by Bree_21

Mowicz through a course like women's studies you'll realize why those examples you gave are not examples of male oppression.

True, and this is an elegant way of saying what I was trying to last night. (I did mention being tired :p)

I was trying to say a Male Studies course need not be about oppression and could just be about some critical issues that aren't 'comfortable' conversation.

First off, lots of men wear pink and aren't called homosexual and alot of men cry and aren't bashed.

It's easy to just say something like this, but growing up as a male in this country I definitely know that it's a sign of weakness and 'being a man' is of utmost importance to your social status.

While "lots of men" may be able to get away with breaking social trends, they are still social trends.

The problem is that women are perceived a certain way without doing anything at all, and these are things that LIMIT them as a person. Example: people assume women are cry babies that whine and cry over everything.

I'm not entirely sure this is true...I could definitely see that people think that it's socially acceptable for a woman to cry, but to assume they will and act with that as an impulse...that's different.

Perhaps you need a slightly stronger or more convincing example? (I'm sure one exists)

The second thing is, because wmen's studies is about patriarchy, the reason a male would be bashed for something "gay" is because the ideal male is a heterosexual... so (i know i'm not explaining this perfectly, sorry) technically the oppression would be directed to a homosexual male (becuse the bashing isn't necessarily for wearing pink, it's becuse being gay is not acceptable.. right?)

Again, remember that I'm proposing the course have a completely different focus than women's studies.

Unfortunately at this point it gets down to "No it isn't" "Yes it is" debating since I don't have anything factual to back it up besides my own experiences. But I don't think it's about being 'gay' at all...I think it's about weakness.

Why exactly a pink shirt translates into weakness I don't know (although conversely, I'd like to see you explain why wearing a pink shirt means you're gay...haha), social phenomena are weird and largely inexplicable. But I do know that growing up in this society, I'd rather have been labelled a 'tough gay' than a 'weak straight.'

And the women wearing male clothing... how many women do you know that wear suits (just like men do) and not "female" suits (tighter fitting, sometimes skirts, and almost always heels).

No offense, but I think pointing this out is grasping at strings a little bit...do you think a men's suit would fit a woman? Suits are designed to be a 'one size fits one' piece of clothing. You buy a suit that's a custom fit.

As 'gender-blind' as I'd like to be, women are not the same as men. They have bigger hips and larger chests, and also a lack of external genitalia. In a 'custom fit' piece of clothing, this is as different as it gets.

And actually, I've never seen a business woman wearing heels unless she was wearing a skirt (since they match: heels would look pretty silly with a pair of dress pants, and dress shoes would look silly with a skirt). This very woman was free to wear a pair of pants instead of a skirt, this is her choice.

Do you really feel this is oppression? Could a man wear a skirt/heels?

The biggest issue here is that people STILL argue that men are oppressed more than women and try to make a fact out of it (JUST like i used to!! )

Nobody seems to be saying that...I'm certainly not!

Also, with the menopause thing, why do you think people know about it and not the male "version"? This is when people need to take a step back. What is associated with menopause? embaressment, mood swings, old age, non fertile, depression, anger, emotional. It's present in tv shows and jokes and used to make women feel ashamed of themselves.... but no, men go through something similar and it is not publicized or attached to males to "limit " them.

Perhaps you're overcomplicating matters and padding the truth a little bit here:

Menopause is a distinct event in which a woman's reproductive system shuts down for the remainder of her life.

Andropause is a subtle, psychological after-effect to the decrease of testosterone in males, but their reproductive organs continue to function.


Which is it that you think is more easily noticable, and will merit more scientific study?

Until you take the course I honestly don't think you should guesstimate who has it worse. When you actually have to ask and search "what men were oppressed in history" should make you realized that this is a very important and serious course .. but more so it's an impotant issue to learnabout.

... Sorry i said i wouldn't ramble and i did.... i'll have to say it again, until you take the course you will sit there and think of every little thing (once again... just like i did) that seems like it opprsses males, but in the end... patriarchy has had control over all minorities (minorities referring to anything but heterosexual white males) in different ways.

I slightly resent this underlying theme in your post. First and foremost, taking a course or two doesn't make you an expert in the field. And secondly, because I (or anyone for that matter) haven't, our criticism is, by definition invalid?

Both of these fall under a trap known as a Proof by Appeal to Authority. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ogical_fallacy )

First off, you'd like to have me explain how wearing pink makes you gay? Sorry.. you said it.. i just expanded...

Can I wear a pink shirt without being accused of being a homosexual?

so maybe you should explain


Secondly, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't say anything because you haven;t taken the course, what I am saying is that none of those examples given, yours or mine, regarding clothing, or colours, or suits or heals are the main issues of women's studies, and that's what i was trying to show you. I'm telling you it is very difficult to realize these limitations and oppression until you take the course because THAT is what happened with me. I literally said everything you are saying now, I said the whole pink/manly/crying thing. I am not the person to explain this, and i'm sorry that i even attempted, but if you do get the chance to read up on or even speak with someone that is very educated on women's studies, patriarchy, and the oppression of minorities in the West and around the world, you and everyone else should take the opportunity.

This course would be awesome. HMWK Assignment: Watch manswers and take notes.

I "attended" the online conference two weeks ago and I found it to be a worthy academic endeavour. Clearly, people are looking at the title "Male Studies" and assuming the professors are proposing a program similar to "Women's Studies."

They are not, hence it is not called "Men's Studies."

Take a look at the FAQs for the proposal and it should dispel a large number of myths present on this forum: http://www.malestudies.org/faq2.htm

Originally Posted by Bree_21

First off, you'd like to have me explain how wearing pink makes you gay? Sorry.. you said it.. i just expanded...

Can I wear a pink shirt without being accused of being a homosexual?

so maybe you should explain

No, I'm saying wearing a pink shirt is socially a sign of weakness (and not homosexuality). My point was, while I can't explain why it's a sign of weakness, arguing your side, that it's about homosexual oppression, is just as difficult to explain.

Secondly, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't say anything because you haven;t taken the course, what I am saying is that none of those examples given, yours or mine, regarding clothing, or colours, or suits or heals are the main issues of women's studies, and that's what i was trying to show you.

This is all fine and good, except we're not talking about making a male studies course that's a carbon copy of the women's studies course, with some names/historical events switched around.

I'm saying men have different issues (in particular, in this day and age) and we could potentially tailor a course to that.

-----------

I'd like to stress that I'm not badmouthing women's studies...you seem to be putting words into my mouth, and/or misconstruing some of the points I'm trying to make. I'm not saying we could have a practically identical course centred around men.

But there are issues men have that women don't, and we could make a course to talk about those. Even backlash from the feminine movement: the fact that feminism has killed chivalry in almost all forms.

I've posted here before saying that I no longer offer my seat to women on the bus after being declared an ignorant pig one too many times, by women who fail to understand what feminism is. Would you believe that about a month ago, I offered my seat on the bus to a pregnant women (clearly in her third trimester), whom of all people I thought would appreciate the gesture, and got chewed out?

Think about how it feels to be yelled at in public declared a "closed-minded bigot" in front of all other passengers, by a complete stranger, one who you were trying to do something nice for. Then you have to sit on the bus with the same person (and witnesses) for another 20 minutes until you reach your destination. It's embarrassing to say the least.

I won't make that mistake again any time soon.

You can offer your seat to me any day, mike. :p

Originally Posted by Bree_21

Ohhhh sorry I didn't understand what you were asking. I thought i explained it a little bit. Basically people have perceived impressions of women based on their gender and their gender alone.

Ex: women are: weak, cry babies, less intelligent than males, and have much higher expectations but are still bashed no matter what they do

So peope have perceived impressions of men based on their gender alone as well. Men are strong, men should be the breadwinner, men don't cry, men play sports, men like watching sports, men don't clean, men are smarter than women. Why do big muscles=masculine and why are girls attracted to that? Because media tells us girls like big strong men, just like girls men have body image issues too, but it's not talked about as much. Men suffer from anorexia too, and some are depressed because they don't have big muscles just like women are depressed because they're fat. But nobody talks about that so unlike women who constantly have thier issues talked about men usually have to deal with it on their own because society hasn't made it okay for men to talk about their problems.

So how do you think a guy who cooks and cleans and isn't too smart and sometimes cries, hates sports feels when he doesn't fit the socially constructed idea of a male? You seem to be avoiding that these problems exist in both genders. How do you think an older man feels when he sees a commercial for viagra, because lets face it most people laugh when they see that, old people should have sex too and nobody wants to be laughed at because they need a pill for it.

And actually, I've never seen a business woman wearing heels unless she was wearing a skirt (since they match: heels would look pretty silly with a pair of dress pants, and dress shoes would look silly with a skirt). This very woman was free to wear a pair of pants instead of a skirt, this is her choice.

I'm...really backward in dressing myself. (I don't put on my clothes backward but you know what I mean) Why would a person not wear heels with dress pants?
...Apart from the fact that anything other than Nikes should never be worn - ever, for anything

Originally Posted by goodnews.inc

And actually, I've never seen a business woman wearing heels unless she was wearing a skirt (since they match: heels would look pretty silly with a pair of dress pants, and dress shoes would look silly with a skirt). This very woman was free to wear a pair of pants instead of a skirt, this is her choice.

I'm...really backward in dressing myself. (I don't put on my clothes backward but you know what I mean) Why would a person not wear heels with dress pants?
...Apart from the fact that anything other than Nikes should never be worn - ever, for anything

Generally, if you have pants long enough to wear with a pair of heels, they're too long to wear without heels. So, it's just easier to wear flats with pants and heels and/or flats with skirts.

Also, not wearing heels with a skirt can make you look stumpy. Heels help your shape with a skirt. While you don't necessarily need heels with pants to help your shape/figure.

****, I knew all those episodes of what not to wear would come in handy one day. XDDD

Dont know if its been brought up yet, but perhaps males have higher suicide rates because they often repress emotion/don't ask for help to keep with the male stereotype of being "strong"?

As opposed to most women who express feelings and might seek help more readily?

Gender studies are interesting for sure

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Generally, if you have pants long enough to wear with a pair of heels, they're too long to wear without heels. So, it's just easier to wear flats with pants and heels and/or flats with skirts.

Also, not wearing heels with a skirt can make you look stumpy. Heels help your shape with a skirt. While you don't necessarily need heels with pants to help your shape/figure.

****, I knew all those episodes of what not to wear would come in handy one day. XDDD

wearing heels just reminds men of when women used to have a huge thumb thing on their foot. (when we were monkeys) That is why it is liked. lool

Originally Posted by micadjems

Dont know if its been brought up yet, but perhaps males have higher suicide rates because they often repress emotion/don't ask for help to keep with the male stereotype of being "strong"?

As opposed to most women who express feelings and might seek help more readily?

Gender studies are interesting for sure

I'm pretty sure that it's the method of suicide that leads to higher suicide rates. Females have more suicide attempts, but they use methods like overdosing which usually just leads to liver/brain damage. Typically when you shoot yourself in the head it's more likely to be fatal.