Guuy who wrote this gave me persmission to post it :

"
This post is about the 12 point grading system that McMaster has (one of the only schools that does) and why it's a highly flawed system of scoring everyone's GPA.

Usually schools give you percent grades and average out the grades which makes sense, but with the 12 point scale, in one simple average that computers do, people's GPA’s can drop upwards of ten percent. There is never a case where the student gets higher or even the same as what they deserve, it is always substantially lower.

Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent.

If you average out your own grades and then compare it to the point average at the bottom of your transcript you'll also see that your mark has been dropped by at least a couple percent. My mark has been underestimated by 6 percent and that’s assuming that I got the lowest percent in each point bracket. Since we don’t know our percent, but we do know the range, try it both ways. Average out the highest percentage you could have gotten and the lowest percentage you could have gotten (ex. a 9 and a 10 could be either 79% and 84% or 77% and 80%). In either case, that average will be higher than the one your transcript says. There is no mathematical way for McMaster to ever give you a GPA of what you actually got or higher, it is always significantly lower.

Another simpler example: if in two courses I get 78 percent and 82 percent, you would think that my average would be 80. It makes sense on a numerical level. Let’s convert that to points- 9 and 10. The average of the two points is 9.5, which is not an 80 percent; it is actually around a 78 percent. So according to McMaster, the average of 78 and 80 is 78. This point system essentially ‘screws you over’ as you don’t get the marks that you deserve and when applying to a higher level education you are competing with students from universities that give them proper representations of their marks.

At first, when I figured this out I thought maybe there was something I was missing- so I went to the registrar’s office looking for answers. I came out of there leaving them confused. All they said was “we don’t know what happens, we just get the grades from the faculties and put it in the computer and they churn out this number”. So after all the hard work done by professors and students around Mac to get their marks the highest it can be, their cumulative average is “churned out” by a computer that no one at registrar seems to understand and in turn is underestimated. They assume that any average is a fair average, and that averaging out a bunch of points with different weights (i.e. points 1-9 have a range of 3-4% while a 12 has a range of 10%) gives everyone a proper GPA. This is a very flawed way of taking someone’s average and is unfair to every registered student at McMaster.

I am going to the MSU to represent me on this and see if there is anything that could be done. It will not be difficult to change because the faculties are responsible for giving the grades to registrar (in the form of grade letters A+, A, B, etc.). To change that to percentages would be simple as professors would just have to calculate marks in more detail. Once these marks are sent to registrar, the computer would be able to average out the grades the way it does points and give everyone a proper representation of their GPA. It is neither the registrar’s nor the faculties’ faults but the fault of miscommunication between the two. I have gone to both the faculty offices and the registrar office and neither of them know anything about it and both directed me to the other office. Because of this simple mix-up, every single student at McMaster pays dearly.

For a GPA conversion visit http://careers.mcmaster.ca/students/...nversion-chart You'll notice that McMaster is one of the only school's that has a 12 point scale and that most universites use percent grades."

You may correct me if you find any errors in what I believed to be true.

I have been told by several individuals that while you receive report cards on the 12-point scale the registrar stores all your marks as a % value. So if a grad school, or prospective employer requires a transcript it can be provided in the standardized % system. In this way we aren't being 'screwed over' in any way, shape or form. We just get weird report cards.

Even using the linked conversion chart, we aren't getting screwed over. The vast majority of the schools are using the letter system, which according to that chart is exactly the same thing as the 12 point scale, with the difference of using numbers instead of letters.

I just strive for 6's for this reason alone.

To above post it doesnt matter if you got 6s, if you get a single 5, you get a 5. something on your transcript.

To 2nd post, If that's the case that's good news. But to they calculate % by usingthe 12 point scale ?

For example, i ffor 2 course I get a 74 and a 69. My average would be 71.5%. But maybe Mcmaster computes the average this way : 74 is an 8 and 69 is a 6. So the average is 6+8/2 =7 and a 7 is 70%. But you just lost 1.5% right there, Imagine if you took more courses into this calculation. What if mcmaster keeps that % calculated with the 12 point grade average ?

And the majority of school uses a point GPA which makes the most sense. And if they use letters, they use A+ A and A- not like Mcmaster, which converts it to A and then A-

Edit: I don't recall putting that emoticon there, but I like him.

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

For example, i ffor 2 course I get a 74 and a 69. My average would be 71.5%. But maybe Mcmaster computes the average this way : 74 is an 8 and 69 is a 6. So the average is 6+8/2 =7 and a 7 is 70%. But you just lost 1.5% right there, Imagine if you took more courses into this calculation. What if mcmaster keeps that % calculated with the 12 point grade average ?

The registrar stores all your course marks for the entirety of your education at Mcmaster (and perhaps long beyond it), They don't store averages, those just get calculated from your course marks.

Let's say you get the 5 marks of: 74, 81, 72, 69, 85
If you ask for a transcript in % format you will have the marks of 74, 81, 72, 69, 85 and the correct average mark because that is what is stored in the computers. You won't get weird %'s you didn't earn because of the 12 point scale

Long story short, our report cards are poor representations of our marks, but that doesn't really matter. The case would be exactly the same if McMaster used the letter system like most universities.
12 -> A+
11 -> A
.
.
.
You get the idea.

Originally Posted by REPLEKIA/.

Edit: I don't recall putting that emoticon there, but I like him.

The registrar stores all your course marks for the entirety of your education at Mcmaster (and perhaps long beyond it), They don't store averages, those just get calculated from your course marks.

Let's say you get the 5 marks of: 74, 81, 72, 69, 85
If you ask for a transcript in % format you will have the marks of 74, 81, 72, 69, 85 and the correct average mark because that is what is stored in the computers. You won't get weird %'s you didn't earn because of the 12 point scale

Long story short, our report cards are poor representations of our marks, but that doesn't really matter. The case would be exactly the same if McMaster used the letter system like most universities.
12 -> A+
11 -> A
.
.
.
You get the idea.

Doesn't matter, for example in engineering, if you want to go into a second year program, they'll calculate your GPA average. And that can make a difference, and for scholarships too.

I never asked for a transcript before so I don't know how it is issued. Do they show you A+, A,A-, B+, etc... or do they actually show you the percentage ?

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

Doesn't matter, for example in engineering, if you want to go into a second year program, they'll calculate your GPA average. And that can make a difference, and for scholarships too.

I want to agree with you since (if correct), you raise a good point.

But I should point out that in your examples, assuming you're only comparing McMaster students, you're competing against everyone else undergoing the same treatment. There really isn't a disadvantage unless you happen to be unfortunate enough to have a bunch of marks on the higher end of the number scales (eg. 89-->11, 72-->7).

However, looking at an official transcript that's literally right in front of me, my marks are in the letter format and I don't recall there being an option to have my marks in a % format on the transcript request form, though it may still be possible if you inquire about it in person. I'll ask someone who works at the Registrar and see what they have to say.

Edit: Friend at the Registrar said that the database only stored letter grades unless you're from the 70s, for those interested.

Ive never heard of the office of the registrar keeping percentage marks on record.

What I have heard, however, is that the 12 point scale doesn't put us at a disadvantage compared to other schools. This is because, apparently, all schools convert individual course grades into GPA (0.00-4.00) scale, and then average that. As you can see from the conversion chart, converting a grade from a 12 point scale and converting a grade from a exact percentage will make no difference in determining your average in the standard GPA scale.

Edit: This still doesn't make sense, as there are multiple different percentage scales on that conversion chart. Depending on which one you use, a percentage grade could mean two different marks on the GPA or 12 point scales...WTF

Again, this is only based on rumours Ive heard and it would be nice the get some clarification on this... if it works the way OP describes it, and the registrar doesn't keep our percentage grades, we are definitely at a disadvantage comared to other schools.

I'm guessing this was written by someone who doesn't understand the grading system at all, but I'll try and clear up a few things

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

Usually schools give you percent grades and average out the grades which makes sense, but with the 12 point scale, in one simple average that computers do, people's GPA’s can drop upwards of ten percent. There is never a case where the student gets higher or even the same as what they deserve, it is always substantially lower.

The 12 point scale is based on the letter grading system, they're both based on percentages and accurately translate to the 1%-100% per mark. The 12 point grading system, like the letter grade system, skews to the higher grades so converting averages directly to percentages never works. We have the general 4-point system that equalizes any differences.

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

Another simpler example: if in two courses I get 78 percent and 82 percent, you would think that my average would be 80. It makes sense on a numerical level. Let’s convert that to points- 9 and 10. The average of the two points is 9.5, which is not an 80 percent; it is actually around a 78 percent. So according to McMaster, the average of 78 and 80 is 78.

That's well known and it's why the Dean's List (i.e. The 80% and higher honour roll) has a 9.5 cutoff, not a 10.

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

This point system essentially ‘screws you over’ as you don’t get the marks that you deserve and when applying to a higher level education you are competing with students from universities that give them proper representations of their marks.

Actually, since basically every graduate or professional school looks at your marks converted to the 4-Point scale, you're not "screwed over" at all. On the scale that you'll be applying to Grad/Professional school with a 90-100/A+/12 are all looked at as a 4.0, a 85-89/A/11 are all 3.9, a 80-84/A-/10 are all 3.7, etc

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

I am going to the MSU to represent me on this and see if there is anything that could be done. It will not be difficult to change because the faculties are responsible for giving the grades to registrar (in the form of grade letters A+, A, B, etc.). To change that to percentages would be simple as professors would just have to calculate marks in more detail. Once these marks are sent to registrar, the computer would be able to average out the grades the way it does points and give everyone a proper representation of their GPA. It is neither the registrar’s nor the faculties’ faults but the fault of miscommunication between the two. I have gone to both the faculty offices and the registrar office and neither of them know anything about it and both directed me to the other office. Because of this simple mix-up, every single student at McMaster pays dearly.

It's been done, and it gets brought up every year, and the conclusion is always the same. Our marking scheme is functionally the same as most Ontario schools. So there is no reason to change it. We could use a percent grading scheme, but because everything is converted to the 4-Point scale it won't make a difference in Grad/Professional school applications.

Originally Posted by Sxefmachine

For a GPA conversion visit http://careers.mcmaster.ca/students/...nversion-chart You'll notice that McMaster is one of the only school's that has a 12 point scale and that most universites use percent grades."

Almost all of the schools on the list use system 3 or 7 which are functionally IDENTICAL to the 12 point system when converted to the 4-point scale (which they all are for grad school).

Anyway, there's really nothing wrong with the 12 point system. It's not meant to be used to convert your average back to a percentage (which seems to be the flawed logic the writer was using here) and it will not negatively affect you when applying for grad/professional school or looking for scholarships.

The copypasta is actually a repeat/was authored back in summer of 2009. Please refer to this thread http://www.macinsiders.com/showthrea...ad ing+system

See also:

http://www.macinsiders.com/showthrea...les-25766.html

I don't understand this argument.

Firstly, for Waterloo, if you want to apply for Optometry, a 12 is viewed as a 95 and an 11 as an 87.5. This in itself is already pretty good - because when I get a 12, it's likely in the low 90s.

Secondly, most schools calculate with a A+/12/4.0 system anyway - everyone gets the same "disadvantage".

does anyone know why this grading systems even exist in the first place? Like why use letters or a scale of points from 1 to 12 for example, why not just use percentages??