Originally Posted by Icecream

I don't think there's a singular church who controls what catholic schools do. It's the government who's behind this with the majority of voters (who are mostly 50+ years old) backing it in votes.

Uhh, yes, there is a singular church that decides what catholic schools do. The catholic church :p . I doubt Harper sits in the house saying "Catholic schools should be homophobic!"

edit: oh, i see what you're getting at. There may not be a single church, but the schools still follow the same teachings and i doubt its at the discretion at the principals to see what they can pick and choose out of the bible.

Originally Posted by Icecream

I don't think there's a singular church who controls what catholic schools do. It's the government who's behind this with the majority of voters (who are mostly 50+ years old) backing it in votes.

From what I understand, each school board has a group of people who decide, and they also refer to local Bishops.

I agree that this may be in place until a majority of the last very religious generation dies out, unfortunately.

(edit: not saying there aren't religious people now, just that there is a larger number of non-affiliated people now)

Originally Posted by Icecream

It's the government who's behind this with the majority of voters (who are mostly 50+ years old) backing it in votes.

I was reading that 53% of people opposed catholic school funding, ~23% supported the current funding system and ~23% supported funding of muslim and jewish schools as well as public and catholic. This was in 2007 (too lazy to find the article again but it was about John Tory proposing funding for all religious schools).

Wow, we're all cool with sticking up for religion and homosexuality (as we should) and recognize when it's wrong, but it's so difficult for posters to stop making ridiculously sexist comments about women?

"The stereotypes of Catholic schools are just ridiculous. Yes, there are a lot of "sluts", but you're going to get that at any school, not just Catholic schools (although the numbers were surprising at my school)."

Excuse me? This is based on what, how they dress? Personal knowledge? Do you have statistics that back how "slutty" girls are in high school? What exactly constitutes being a slut? Why are we even discussing "sluts" in this forum? I really hope that you and everyone else recognize just how sexist, demeaning, and hypocritical the statements you're making are. I also love how you start off with "the stereotypes of Catholic schools are just ridiculous" and then go on to stereotype women in a much more disturbing light - it's not nice when it's your religion/your sexuality/gender being put down is it?

"Nah, I attended Catholic schools.
Yes, there are slutty girls, but there are slutty girls in public schools as well."

For someone that pointed out the irony of fighting ignorance with ignorance, you sure missed the point. Why are you even saying this? How come we're not talking about slutty guys, or as*hole guys, or hey, the fact that a religious school is acting on homophobia? Every single thread keeps turning into anti-woman, and no one seems to even care.

"That's true, I shouldn't have generalized about girls in catholic schools. But from my experience, (used to know people there), a lot of them were." J. Dorey (sp?)'s Response: I agree, it's actually pretty bad..

Please see post 1 and 2. Love how you apologize for generalizing.. and then generalize (and based on the fact that you knew people there- which means it MUST be true!!) all over again.


"As for funding, I remember a time when catholic schools weren't government funded. I believe the reason other schools (say Jewish) aren't funded is because they wish to be classed as Private so the government has absolutely no say in their curriculum. This is something I've definitely noticed has changed since 1999."

Unless you're like 100+ years old, I doubt you remember a time when Catholic schools weren't funded. There are SOME private Catholic schools (St. Mikes, De la Salle College, etc. etc.) but historically Catholic schools in Ontario have been funded by the government (before 1900)

Problems with Catholic schools being funded:

*If you would like to become a teacher at a Catholic school you must prove that you are a practicing Catholic that believes in _____ (all things Catholic). A lot of people have a problem with this because a school system that is publicly funded is discriminating against potential teachers.
*A lot of Catholic schools have not provided students with the necessary sexual health information and have actually given wrong/misleading information about homosexuality and abortion, despite being required by the government to provide the education
*Millions of dollars have been stolen by Catholic board members specifically over the last decade (separate issue, but an issue none the less)

Most importantly, the government only agreed to allow Catholic schools in Ontario to please the Catholic French in Canada - I haven't looked up anything in a long long time but I'm pretty sure the deal was only to be made if Quebec allowed/funded? Protestant schools in their Province as well. This obviously isn't the case today, and as such a lot of people feel that the Catholic church shouldn't be funded anymore because the deal wasn't followed through with.

There's nothing wrong with Catholic schools having their own school system, just as other religions do, and it's not fair to label all Catholics as bigots, but if you look at the above ^ there really isn't any reason to continue funding Catholic schools.

Apparently it's empowering, not sexist.

Exhibit A: http://www.slutwalktoronto.c om/


EDIT: my point is, if you want to yell at someone, a good starting point would be to yell at the _women_ perpetuating the term...not just the men.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Apparently it's empowering, not sexist.

Exhibit A: http://www.slutwalktoronto.c om/


EDIT: my point is, if you want to yell at someone, a good starting point would be to yell at the _women_ perpetuating the term...not just the men.

No other cause makes me more angry than the Slutwalk. Most useful and biggest waste of time and effort. What are they fighting for? Apparently for the right not to be blamed by dressing provocatively based on a terribly misinterpreted view of an officers remark providing a tip to reduce the risk of rape. Because I am a Girl is a good cause that fights for women's rights and has a great purpose, the slutwalk is just angsty feminists that like to feel like society hates them.

Although the point about generalizing about "slutty catholic schoolgirls" is a really good one. I hate slutiness and provocative dressing but throwing the slutty catholic school image out there in this topic is totally off topic and ignorant.

p.s I was locked out of the slutwalk thread so I felt the need to vent here

I'm by no means supporting the notion that "all girls are sluts" but there's nothing wrong with using the word if it's relevant. Namely, if the word was used but it wasn't even in a generalizing way, what's the problem?

It's no different from calling someone dumb...99.9% of times it's an insult but is actually a perfectly reasonable word to show that someone is unable to speak.

Going off on everyone because they said they saw some slutty girls isn't really called for. They very well could have been dressed slutty, and these few bad apples spoiled the bunch for that poster... But it was the girls' faults. Tough.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

It's no different from calling someone dumb...99.9% of times it's an insult but is actually a perfectly reasonable word to show that someone is unable to speak.

Yes, and let's call anyone with a developmental disability 'retarded' while we're at it. And gay people are ***s, and people with Alzheimer's are demented.

Calling someone who can't speak 'dumb' is not reasonable.

No, society has polluted the meaning of the word dumb to mean "a lack of intelligence." but this isn't what the word means:

dumb Adjective   /dəm/
dumber comparative;   dumbest superlative
(of a person) Unable to speak, most typically because of congenital deafness
he was born deaf, dumb, and blind

deaf-and-dumb[def-uhn-duhm] Show IPA
–adjective Often Offensive . deaf-mute ( def. 1 ) .


Origin:
1150–1200; Middle English def and doumb

Historically, it was acceptable (as were the other words I mentioned), but currently, they are not. The meaning of words changes with popular usage. Despite what the historical or original meaning may have been, it does not make it acceptable now, which is why dictionaries often include that it is offensive.

So sad.. I'm Lost For Words

I just stupidly/accidentally deleted my post so I'm just going to quickly try to retype it.


"Apparently it's empowering, not sexist.

Exhibit A: http://www.slutwalktoronto.c om/"

So you don't understand what slutwalk is, OK. Slutwalk is about changing how society and ignorant individuals like yourself perceive women and label/demean them. By "taking back the word" and using it to empower the women that are discriminated against by it.


"my point is, if you want to yell at someone, a good starting point would be to yell at the _women_ perpetuating the term...not just the men."

Really? That's your argument? "Oh Em Gee stop hating on the menzzz" I pointed out any and everyone being sexist, not just men, I didn't even check gender before posting. You don't even make sense... so because you're sexist I should just ignore it and put it on.. oh wait I'm not ignoring anyone else soooo.. what?


"I hate slutiness and provocative dressing"

Cool bro so you're a hypocrite too. What do you hate about provocative dressing? Is it distracting? Does it make you uncomfortable? Do you worry that women might show ankles and shoulders?!?! Does it bother you that women aren't confining to your definition of a "good girl"?? We learn that it's wrong to judge people by their clothing/appearance/gender/sexual orientation/race in Grade 2, so unless you're 6, you don't have any reason for your ignorance.


"What are they fighting for? Apparently for the right not to be blamed by dressing provocatively based on a terribly misinterpreted view of an officers remark providing a tip to reduce the risk of rape"


The officers words were not "misinterpreted". Nice try, but he even *eventually* apologized and admitted his guilt.

Yes, women would not like to be blamed for being raped. If you look at the definition of rape, it should say something about being forcibly penetrated without consent. Unfortunately, a number of defense teams (and the public, and as a result juries) have gone so far to consider/argue that a raped woman is at fault, and the rapist was provoked, because the woman was wearing a skirt/was a "slut"/was a prostitute, gave him a dirty look, etc. etc. This COMPLETELY sexist idea results in rapists getting off and women being shamed. This is what Slutwalk would like to change.

Although for some reason this is a difficult concept for individuals like yourself to grasp, rape does NOT occur as a result of being provoked by a "sexy" woman. Rape is about power, and all types of women are raped- young, old, conservatively dressed, rich, poor - although a common factor is being a woman! Any sociologist/criminologist would testify to this.

Telling women that they shouldn't dress "slutty" is bad for two reasons. 1. What is dressing slutty? and 2. women should be able to walk down the street however they please without being raped (and blamed for it). The problem isn't that women are going out at night alone, dressing "slutty", or having consensual sex, the problem is, MEN ARE RAPING WOMEN. So what should we do? Not confine women to their homes, not suggest to women that they should wear different clothing (which scholars have proven wouldn't change anything since rape is about power) but we should be holding rapists accountable for their actions and teaching them that RAPE IS WRONG. Doesn't that make MUCH more sense than shaming women for being raped?! (and please don't give me some bullshiz argument about locking your house - 1. even then the robber is at fault/a criminal and 2. we're talking about a human being and their right to safety, seriously)

Anyone that is raped, woman or man, is not at fault. Their rapist is at fault.

I just can't believe the ignorance coming from this forum, and as a result the University I attend. I know that I'll have to face people like you for the rest of my life, but it really is disheartening that University educated individuals in the best, most tolerant, country in the world are so hateful, selfish, and unaware of their hypocrisy.


Edit: "Going off on everyone because they said they saw some slutty girls isn't really called for. They very well could have been dressed slutty, and these few bad apples spoiled the bunch for that poster... But it was the girls' faults. Tough"

The problem is we shouldn't be labeling women as sluts, as it's both demeaning (and a double standard) and a result of sexism. I could go on and on about why it's wrong, but I really doubt that it would do much for you anyways considering your above comments.

"So you don't understand what slutwalk is, OK. Slutwalk is about changing how society and ignorant individuals like yourself perceive women and label/demean them. By "taking back the word" and using it to empower the women that are discriminated against by it."

For one, I'm not ignorant for not sharing your opinion that's not what the word means and unless you show me a quote where I was ignorant than I will agree that I was in fact ignorant but until then don't make it personal.

Second, how does Slutwalk suppose to change how society perceives them? "Taking back the word" doesn't actually mean anything at tall its a hollow catchphrase unless you can tell me exactly how you can "take back a word". I agree with the purpose of slut walk to empower women who feel like they should be able to dress slutty, I just think that that is the lamest and most useless purpose ever. Run a carwash or hold a bake sale and educate a girl or save an abused wife in Iraq or something useful and empowering.

""I hate slutiness and provocative dressing"

Cool bro so you're a hypocrite too. What do you hate about provocative dressing? Is it distracting? Does it make you uncomfortable? Do you worry that women might show ankles and shoulders?!?! Does it bother you that women aren't confining to your definition of a "good girl"?? We learn that it's wrong to judge people by their clothing/appearance/gender/sexual orientation/race in Grade 2, so unless you're 6, you don't have any reason for your ignorance.""

I am not a hypocrite because I am not slutty or dress provocatively, therefore I am not a hypocrite. I do not classify showing ankles or shoulders slutty, I disagree with the whole women's fashion industry that promotes deep cut shirts, tight pants and short shorts and skirts. Its biology that people are attracted to the opposite sex, so if one does not wish to draw sexual attention then they should not try and provoke that. Its not putting blame on the dressers, its that you shouldn't go jumping into the fire or whatever that saying is, I suck at proverbs. It may be wrong to judge people but it doesn't stop the reality and doesn't stop human nature. In an idealistic world yes some women could dress provocatively and all men could keep their dick out of their mind outside reproductive purposes.

"The officers words were not "misinterpreted". Nice try, but he even *eventually* apologized and admitted his guilt."

there was no mention of blame on the victim or that the criminal would be let off the hook, I clearly can't convince you about the "its like looking both ways when crossing the street" argument and that is where our fundamental difference in opinion is. He angered all the feminists in the world basically of course he has to apologize its his job to please the public, it doesn't mean that he said anything wrong.

You are right victims should not be blamed for dressing slutty, if this was ever the case it was wrong, I'm not denying that. But can you actually show me that has happened? And I agree that rape is known not to particularly target scantily dressed women, but I'd like to see the stats on sexual harassment and assault.

"Telling women that they shouldn't dress "slutty" is bad for two reasons. 1. What is dressing slutty? and 2. women should be able to walk down the street however they please without being raped (and blamed for it). The problem isn't that women are going out at night alone, dressing "slutty", or having consensual sex, the problem is, MEN ARE RAPING WOMEN. So what should we do? Not confine women to their homes, not suggest to women that they should wear different clothing (which scholars have proven wouldn't change anything since rape is about power) but we should be holding rapists accountable for their actions and teaching them that RAPE IS WRONG. Doesn't that make MUCH more sense than shaming women for being raped?! (and please don't give me some bullshiz argument about locking your house - 1. even then the robber is at fault/a criminal and 2. we're talking about a human being and their right to safety, seriously)"

Last time I checked rapists went to jail, I'm pretty sure that is teaching them that rape is wrong. And the shaming of women that get raped is a sexist and definitely not widespread feeling. If a prostitute gets raped, I think most people would think "well maybe she shouldn't put herself in that situation I feel bad for her, but the rapist should and will still go to jail". It's a lot different than shaming you are magnifying the reality and creating this false oppresion, the blame is still always on the criminal but individuals should still try and avoid such crimes rather than walking along the edge of a cliff (sorry for the awful proverbs).

"Anyone that is raped, woman or man, is not at fault. Their rapist is at fault."

you are right, no one is denying that, this is why the Slutwalk is such a joke because its campaigning for an issue that is already agreed upon and dealt with accordingly. RAPISTS GO TO JAIL, WHY ARE YOU STILL PROTESTING.

"I just can't believe the ignorance coming from this forum, and as a result the University I attend. I know that I'll have to face people like you for the rest of my life, but it really is disheartening that University educated individuals in the best, most tolerant, country in the world are so hateful, selfish, and unaware of their hypocrisy. "

People have different opinions, you can't call those people hateful and selfish and hypocritical because thats just not true. When have I shown hatefulness selfishness or hypocrisy?

If you respond with a good argument I will be impressed and I am open minded and willing to accept Slutwalk or any of your arguments if they are logical and not emotionally driven, presumptuous, or ignorant.

continue here for slutwalk talk http://www.macinsiders.com/showthread.php/rainbows-banned-mississauga-catholic-school-43527p4.html?t=43527& page=4