You can practically see “med school application” written on someone’s forehead sometimes.

Originally Posted by temara.brown

You can practically see “med school application” written on someone’s forehead sometimes.

I know exactly what you mean...but I can also see the other side of the argument...I was actually put in a difficult spot a few years back. (I used to volunteer for the Good Shepherd centres)

You're saying, people should not just volunteer/apply for these positions simply for the purpose of getting a reference, correct?

I agree that people 'should' volunteer out of the goodness of their heart, they should want to make a difference...but is it wrong to actually ask for a reference? I got into a discussion with someone over this...I didn't really volunteer to get a reference (I was like 12 years old or so at the time), but someone got really mad at someone else for asking for a reference letter. "You shouldn't get anything out of volunteering!"

I can see that perspective...but I also feel as though it's not really wrong to get a little compensation for your efforts. I mean, that is the whole purpose of requiring a letter (for say, med school) in the first place right?

I don't think either extreme is good...no one should be 'denied' a letter, but no one should enter into something solely for the purpose of gaining a reference.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I know exactly what you mean...but I can also see the other side of the argument...I was actually put in a difficult spot a few years back. (I used to volunteer for the Good Shepherd centres)

You're saying, people should not just volunteer/apply for these positions simply for the purpose of getting a reference, correct?

I agree that people 'should' volunteer out of the goodness of their heart, they should want to make a difference...but is it wrong to actually ask for a reference? I got into a discussion with someone over this...I didn't really volunteer to get a reference (I was like 12 years old or so at the time), but someone got really mad at someone else for asking for a reference letter. "You shouldn't get anything out of volunteering!"

I can see that perspective...but I also feel as though it's not really wrong to get a little compensation for your efforts. I mean, that is the whole purpose of requiring a letter (for say, med school) in the first place right?

I don't think either extreme is good...no one should be 'denied' a letter, but no one should enter into something solely for the purpose of gaining a reference.

Well there is a slight difference between the kind of volunteer activity you are going for. Once again my quixotic viewpoints come into place and I would argue that even if the intention for people is to get refrence letters they should put their heart into whatever cause they are volunteering for! More often then not it is medical school applicants who are mainly involved in so called resume padding, how can they be good doctors in the future if they fail to have any semblance of social empathy and sense of responsibility? Is it all about the money? If so even then I personally believe in the notion of "professionalism" , which means you give the best for whatever organization/group/company you are working for, work for their overall success, become a vital cog in the overall function of the system. That is what a good human being should strive towards.

I recently did 30+ hours for Fyeo(more then most people who signed up) summer orientation, 90% of the people there were Medical school applicants; I often indirectly interviewed them regarding why they were there. They either had an unconvincing "I Like doing this" or a more honest "I'm here to fill my 30 charachter points". Which is ironic because they fail to realize what the "charachter" in that statement means, most of them were hardly interested in what they were doing and found ways to slack off. Similarly my other extracurricular Peer Conduct Board, of the 12 new members I was the only non Medschool stream and judging by their responses to "why" they joined it, I honestly deduced that only one of them had any interest in it. I guess they wanted the whole ethical dillemna experience angle for their "charachter".

But getting to the point, the main difference between sitting at a desk for Greenpeace for a reference letter versus being in a position of student leadership or representation is that your actions(or lack off) directly affect other students, if you fail to meet your goals because you are more concerned with slaving away hours at other "volunteers" and expanding your GPA then your student leadership position, then that clearly is a failiure for the entire system sadly. Leadership jobs are much more lucarative as far as hogging charachter points goes but they also carry a sense of responsibility!

I mean I have only been here an year and so far have met only a handful of medical stream people who I have been highly impressed with in their dedication. Temara has been here for like 4/5 years and given her extensive background with Science people she must have a good reason to honestly come up with a conculsion like that!

I don't hate the resume padding game, I realize it is an neccesity, Med School people normally don't even have time to ask you in detail about your experiences(which might have exposed a few people) hence what counts is how many things you have on your list. Hence what needs to change is the player playing that game!

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Forgive me, this comment will be slightly off-topic...but I'd like to spawn a little discussion regarding this:



I know exactly what you mean...but I can also see the other side of the argument...I was actually put in a difficult spot a few years back. (I used to volunteer for the Good Shepherd centres)

You're saying, people should not just volunteer/apply for these positions simply for the purpose of getting a reference, correct?

I agree that people 'should' volunteer out of the goodness of their heart, they should want to make a difference...but is it wrong to actually ask for a reference? I got into a discussion with someone over this...I didn't really volunteer to get a reference (I was like 12 years old or so at the time), but someone got really mad at someone else for asking for a reference letter. "You shouldn't get anything out of volunteering!"

I can see that perspective...but I also feel as though it's not really wrong to get a little compensation for your efforts. I mean, that is the whole purpose of requiring a letter (for say, med school) in the first place right?

I don't think either extreme is good...no one should be 'denied' a letter, but no one should enter into something solely for the purpose of gaining a reference.

The thing is that some people get involved merely for their med school apps or whatever the sort. I find that often, though not always, people do things just to buff up their resumes and hardly put any effort into their positions because they already have the title. For instance, if you're the President of an organization or a club, you don't actually have to do anything because you have the title. Don't get me wrong, some people work really hard for their positions-- some don't though. I refuse to get involved in something unless I am able to commit myself completely and I won't get involved unless I know I'll love it. I do a ton of research before I apply for a position to make sure that it's a right choice for me. I get involved just to remain sane throughout the academic year. To be honest, I can't really use any of the positions I have for grad school. Yet, it does benefit me because my grades shoot up when I'm involved in a lot of things. I just hate it when people don't have the drive for a position and often they are people with med school/law school/ etc written on their foreheads. If you work really hard in your role and do try to make a change or difference I think you definitely deserve a reference.

Originally Posted by ferreinm

The thing is that some people get involved merely for their med school apps or whatever the sort. I find that often, though not always, people do things just to buff up their resumes and hardly put any effort into their positions because they already have the title. For instance, if you're the President of an organization or a club, you don't actually have to do anything because you have the title. Don't get me wrong, some people work really hard for their positions-- some don't though. I refuse to get involved in something unless I am able to commit myself completely and I won't get involved unless I know I'll love it. I do a ton of research before I apply for a position to make sure that it's a right choice for me. I get involved just to remain sane throughout the academic year. To be honest, I can't really use any of the positions I have for grad school. Yet, it does benefit me because my grades shoot up when I'm involved in a lot of things. I just hate it when people don't have the drive for a position and often they are people with med school/law school/ etc written on their foreheads. If you work really hard in your role and do try to make a change or difference I think you definitely deserve a reference.

I just wanted to say ditto to this. I'm exactly the same way, and I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by ferreinm

The thing is that some people get involved merely for their med school apps or whatever the sort. I find that often, though not always, people do things just to buff up their resumes and hardly put any effort into their positions because they already have the title. For instance, if you're the President of an organization or a club, you don't actually have to do anything because you have the title. Don't get me wrong, some people work really hard for their positions-- some don't though. I refuse to get involved in something unless I am able to commit myself completely and I won't get involved unless I know I'll love it. I do a ton of research before I apply for a position to make sure that it's a right choice for me. I get involved just to remain sane throughout the academic year. To be honest, I can't really use any of the positions I have for grad school. Yet, it does benefit me because my grades shoot up when I'm involved in a lot of things. I just hate it when people don't have the drive for a position and often they are people with med school/law school/ etc written on their foreheads. If you work really hard in your role and do try to make a change or difference I think you definitely deserve a reference.

LOLOL. Oh my god. Once one of the presidents was elected by the exec, she turned out to be absolutely useless. Sure, as a leader you're supposed to delegate, but if you don't do anything then don't expect others to either. We applied for an MSU award (the J Lynn Watson Award). I wrote up the entire thing, and she ended up signing her name to the application. What a douche.

:|

Originally Posted by ferreinm

The thing is that some people get involved merely for their med school apps or whatever the sort. I find that often, though not always, people do things just to buff up their resumes and hardly put any effort into their positions because they already have the title. For instance, if you're the President of an organization or a club, you don't actually have to do anything because you have the title. Don't get me wrong, some people work really hard for their positions-- some don't though. I refuse to get involved in something unless I am able to commit myself completely and I won't get involved unless I know I'll love it. I do a ton of research before I apply for a position to make sure that it's a right choice for me. I get involved just to remain sane throughout the academic year. To be honest, I can't really use any of the positions I have for grad school. Yet, it does benefit me because my grades shoot up when I'm involved in a lot of things. I just hate it when people don't have the drive for a position and often they are people with med school/law school/ etc written on their foreheads. If you work really hard in your role and do try to make a change or difference I think you definitely deserve a reference.

Ditto! You couldn't have put it better. For example I was actually at the SRA Committee elections for the entire duration, yet I only put my name forward to two positions out of so many I could have had by acclamation by just raising my hand; I had at that time no knowledge or any inclination of a project/personal interest in stuff other then the two I went for(For which I had already researched/laid out plans for what I wanted to do over the year ).

The rest were taken by a good mob of people(mostly healthsci) who were actually there for other stuff(eg: This one first year Girl was there for Services, then randomly they were short a person for Elections Comittee, her SRA members nominated her from Wayyyy across the room, I'm 99% sure she didn't even hear what she was getting nominated for(texting) and she just said yes, then asked her friend: OMG What did I get elected too? I *facepalmed*).

Similarly I'm not sure what the rules for committee attendance are but I heard alot of MSU members hardly ever show up and since they cannot be pressured by the speaker/house leader to do their job unlike SRA members, there is a loophole :(

Join the dots folks!

Originally Posted by Mowicz

You're saying, people should not just volunteer/apply for these positions simply for the purpose of getting a reference, correct?
...
I don't think either extreme is good...no one should be 'denied' a letter, but no one should enter into something solely for the purpose of gaining a reference.

That wasn't what I was saying.. There are people who do it solely for a resume padder. They don't necessarily need to ask for references. These people shouldn't take this route because it really just defeats the whole purpose.

Originally Posted by temara.brown

That wasn't what I was saying..

I know, that was the reason for my whole disclaimer.

Nevermind...3 people missed my point, so I'd assume x more would also.

EDIT: I apologize if that came off rude at all, it's just frustrating to see everyone taking the wrong message from my post, which I was hoping could spin off into positive things as opposed to negativity.

I don't think you got what I was trying to say either. You were implying that I had said it was unwise to sign up for something that would get you a good reference letter. That isn't what I meant. It is strategic career planning to sign up for something relevant, usually cause you enjoy it, do a good job, and earn that letter.

My beef was from those people who sign up for something, do diddly squat, sometimes to an extent that it harms the whole purpose of the group, and then still put it down on their on their resume. Or, with those who have some slight intentions of doing a good job but their real aim is just that reference letter.. I have seen people in situations where once they get that spot that they were aiming for, they abandon the position they referenced and leave it worse off than where it was before.

I don't look at references as compensation either. They are recognition of a job well done.


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