I say "we" because Canada will probably follow with the U.S. though I hope that it does not.

Originally Posted by lorend

c.erl, what do you say to the fact that Calgary, as a very Conservative city, has a fair number of Co-ops, but also a large number of upper class?

A good point, but I'd have to argue that Calgary, like most urban centers, isn't as conservative as the rest of Alberta. There are a sizable amount of New Democratic supporters in Calgary (often coming second to very strong conservative candidates) and it's city council is mostly dominated by liberals.

Besides that point, it's less the size of the respective (and I hate to use the cliche word) classes and more the level of organization on certain fronts. The left wing scene in Calgary and Edmonton is very well organized, which has led to the rise of the Calgary Co-Operatives, the election of Linda Duncan federally and the strong showing of provincial New Democrats and Greens in those cities.

The conservative representatives have taken a very small, if any, role in helping the democratization of the workplace we see in Calgary. What I support is having New Democratic representatives taking a strong role in supporting co-ops in their ridings.

Originally Posted by Goce

As for socialism, I agree that it is a better economic system in terms of co-operation but it does not lead to efficiency. Which may explain why it has almost always, if not always, failed.

The sad fact is that this trend toward socialism is unavoidable, as we are already losing our privacy and freedom.

However, maybe this is needed for our society as it has been tremendously privileged for over 150+ years.

Some food for thought..

More good points, and ones that need to be addressed by the movement as a whole and not just some over zealous university student on a chat board like me

Socialists have been doing a considerable amount of learning from the mistakes of the few forays into socialism we have seen in the past and the larger, more detached communist movements that were, overall, rife with problems and short on solutions.

People like Professor of Economics at Simon-Fraser, Michael Libowitz, have dedicated their lives to picking apart the failures of Yugoslavia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc. and coming up with models that can work. Models like those used in Argentina, which democratized the workplace AND improved efficiency.

And have no fear, socialism does not mean the death of privacy and freedom. Its actually quite the opposite, as we gain more control over the economy and emphasis is placed on public goods, while understanding that people also need privacy and some private goods.

random political blurt:

i wish politicians paid more attention to healthcare for once...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...es-shifts.html

as a future nurse, i don't want to be working a 24-hour shift.

Originally Posted by dvy88

as a future nurse, i don't want to be working a 24-hour shift.

As a future patient of a nurse, I don't want them working a 24 hour shift either.

It is a well known fact that Canada's version of Health Care is lagging behind Europes as far as effectiveness and efficiency. Recently, it was stated that Canada could vastly improve their system by following a model that was two tier. However this constant socialist movement is making that a near impossibility.

It doesn't matter though. That farther left we go the fewer doctors we will have anyway.

C.Erl:

You are advocating for a political position that throws the best parts of humanity out the window. With socialism, everyone is equal, and so there is no benefit to working harder than anyone else. Human ambition is not rewarded, and most of all, we, the people, lose the opportunity to make our lives better.

While this might not apply to you personally, I am disgusted by socialists. They attempt to come into our lives, and create a system based on some stupid notion that people are inherently equal.

I do not see the benefit of a system where people sit around waiting for handouts and subsidies. It is wholly inefficient because there is a lack of incentive. Moreover, the person who does pull their weight is no considered no better than one who sits on his ass half the time.

With capitalism, people actually see real benefits to effort, ingenuity and ambition. Civilization has advanced so far based on self-interest, I don't see why socialists would try to undo that.

Yesterday I was reading a story that was explaining that at this point in time, over 50% of the world's population is middle class. This is the first time in history that such a situation has occured, and it is mainly due to capitalism reaching previously-authoritarian states. This would never occur under socialism. Sure, everyone would be middle-class, but there would be no way to be better.

Moving on, minimum wage? I think that's a farce. Minimum wage works very nicely for those of us who come from the middle-class, and are working for the sake of making money to drink, or watch movies, but for the people who need it most, this system fails them entirely.

It's wonderful that people from the first world cry out in shock over the cheapness of labour in different areas of the world, but these are people who need that money, and can use the money because of the much lower cost of living. That cheap labour means that goods are produced cheaper, and give these people employment! Ten workers, each paid $5 a day is better than five workers, each paid $10 a day because, at the end of the day, everyone is getting paid.

Universal healthcare. A great thing in its inception, but now we see the problems with it. Three posts ago we had someone complaining about 24-hour nursing shifts. That is what the NDP wants to keep going? We need a two-tier system so that there is the option to pay for healthcare, and free up the hospitals, and prevent the migration of doctors to the states. It would also help the public health care system because of the taxes you can apply to privatized system. HELPS EVERYONE!

Unionism. I hate Unions for the most part. Look at York. There is a school that has been decimated by 2 unions: CUPE and the CFS. The CUPE union went on strike for increased wages, ignoring the students, and the CFS lackeys: the YFS, supported them through all this because of CUPE's political ties to the NDP, and CFS. Meanwhile, that clown Sid Ryan is out calling for the banishment of Israeli academics, and the CFS is supporting Carleton who cancelled Shinerama because it primarly affects white males.

You are fighting the system that has given you the freedom to fight it, while using the money and resources made available to you because of this system.

I fully understand your frustration, but I will make the claim that the ideas you accuse socialists of forwarding are far from the ideas socialists actually want to forward. Capitalists have always sought to demonize socialists by saying that we are ignorant dreamers with little more then a basic understanding of the economic system and more of a bleeding heart then a rational conscience.

I do support the socialist notion that, casting aside all the minor differences between people, we are all equal, but I am not an advocate of the welfare system where total income redistribution is at the forefront of government thinking. There is no dignity in a welfare cheque, no point to society if there is no innovation and no progress where there is no ambition!

You and I agree on many points! Under proper socialism (which, despite conventional thinking, is possible), ambition and drive are rewarded, but only when that ambition and drive is put to work benefiting communal interests as opposed to individualism. Companies are democratically managed by workers who elect their supervisors and managers, and all people have a say in the direction of a company. Looking to the examples of the 'reclaimed' companies in Argentina, workers are just as competent as owners when it comes to business decisions. You will still be rewarded for your ambition, because socialism doesn't say 'you cannot be rich!', it simply says 'we all must work together to advance the human race, not just ourselves!' A student who becomes involved with a worker co-operative will be rewarded for drive and vision by being elected to the board of directors and helping move the co-op in the direction they feel is right.

You addressed many points that the right-wing and capitalists have done an excellent job of capitalizing on. Issues of wage, worker security, unionization, health-care...remember, its easy to say 'privatize!' when you have the funds available to pay for the service when it's in private hands, but you have to look at the situation from someone else's perspective.

I want to see a system where everyone is paid a fair wage, where unions are not necessary because workers have control over their companies, where health-care is universally accessible to anyone who needs it and where we work together to achieve common goals rather then dividing to achieve individual goals.

It's true some unions are dominated by radicals who simply want to 'stick it to the man' any way possible, but thats no reason to hate a union. Unions are groupings of workers coming together to fight for their own rights. And the Shinerama incident was simply political correctness going too far, but you're misinformed if you think conservatives don't play the p.c. card as much as any left-winger does. Its all part of politics...

The system I advocate brings the best out of people...the spirit of co-operation, democracy, solidarity and progress. I am fighting a system (an economic system, remember...I am not fighting the political system, democracy, that gives me the right to speak my mind) that constantly seeks to strip my individual liberties away by cutting my wages, increasing my hours and driving me deeper and deeper into their system, where I am factory fodder, not a human being. I use the money earned from my own labour, the resources developed by fellow academics and the passion spurred by my own desire to see all of humanity progress, not just myself.

I stand by my statement that Change is Possible and I understand that you and I see the world differently, but please, don't believe what they tell you I fight for.

deadpool & AndrewC:

Actually, i don't see healthcare as a partisan problem, but a problem for Canada as a whole. As a country, our healthcare systems are not very innovative and are not very receptive to change. The nurse practitioner role was established in Canada many years after it was first introduced in the United States. The same goes with the physician assistant role, which is in its pilot stage now (the United States have had PA's since the mid 1960's). Both NP's and PA's serve as mid-level providers that can diagnose non-life threatening diseases and prescribe certain medications and order tests. They reduce the need for doctors (in cases of non-life threatening illnesses) and are cheaper to employ.

However, the one thing that bugs me most is how we don't have electronic medical records yet in Ontario... which is pretty embarassing in this day and age. Our healthcare system is too traditional and needs change. Personally, I am a fan of our one-tier system (I'd rather have a consistent mediocore system than a superior and inferior one), but money needs to be allocated to more innovative and effective solutions.

I am going to avoid getting into the NDP vs Conservative battle because that one will never end.

The problem with the US having such large debt is that the US economy/government is now foreign owned. It may be the largest economy in the world but its no longer owned by Americans, its owned by China, India and other up and coming counties.

To c.erl (but more so the NDP/more left leaning parties)
You talk about the new socialism but I have a feeling no body knows about the new socialism you talk about. I think a bit of marketing is required. Just a thought, if you cant get your message out there then one will support it because everyone thinks about what they already know.

Under proper socialism, all Animals are equally working towards benefiting the farm. And some Animals are rewarded for their skills and leadership by being elevated to management positions. Then the older Animals are turned into glue for the benefit of the farm.

All Animals are Equal, it's just that some are more Equal than others... Oink!

Let's go build us a windmill.

Originally Posted by JeffB

To c.erl (but more so the NDP/more left leaning parties)
You talk about the new socialism but I have a feeling no body knows about the new socialism you talk about. I think a bit of marketing is required. Just a thought, if you cant get your message out there then one will support it because everyone thinks about what they already know.

I couldn't have said it better myself! Yes, we need better marketing, something the old guard within the party and movement haven't been willing to accept. Any new ideas will not be accepted by the public unless the public knows what they are, and that is the next major challenge facing the left.

Obama did it in the United States with the liberal brand, socialists need to follow his lead.