Originally Posted by lawleypop

Righttt. Even though I said exactly "a) Mathematicians will understand it, whether they speak English, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, German, etc. because there are no english words.
b) Laymen will NOT understand it, whether they speak English, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, German, etc. because the math is complicated."

I was referring to the fact that you don’t think math is universal (below)

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Yes, it may be the same EVERYWHERE, but if no one else besides engineers/mathematicians/smart people can explain it, then it's not universal.

Let's just all speak in mumbles to each other and pretend like everyone can understand each other and call it universal!

Originally Posted by lawleypop

How you're a volunteer for this site is beyond me. See, if I'm going to be a *****, I'm going to acknowledge that fact. I don't try and subtly (subtlely?) hide it.

I am not being a *****. I am sorry if you think that. I am just contributing to a discussion, where my perspective is totally different from yours.

I don’t think personal opinions should affect whether or not you can volunteer. If you are willing to devote your time, you're enthusiastic about the group, and you are invested in a group’s success, then by all means, you should get an opportunity to help out (and this goes for everyone). Nonetheless, that is a discussion for another time. I think this thread (and the corresponding topic) has pretty much been discussed.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I don't try and subtly (subtlely?) hide it.

It's "subtly".

Originally Posted by rrtt

I was referring to the fact that you don’t think math is universal (below)





I am not being a *****. I am sorry if you think that. I am just contributing to a discussion, where my perspective is totally different from yours.

I don’t think personal opinions should affect whether or not you can volunteer. If you are willing to devote your time, you're enthusiastic about the group, and you are invested in a group’s success, then by all means, you should get an opportunity to help out (and this goes for everyone). Nonetheless, that is a discussion for another time. I think this thread (and the corresponding topic) has pretty much been discussed.



It's "subtly".

I did not mean that personal opinions should be the deciding factors of making someone a volunteer. I meant more along the lines that your tone/attitude in the comment I quoted is exactly the type of post that I get warned for.

And I agreed that math is the same EVERYWHERE, but it's not universal because my definition of universal is "understood by all." (which is not a made up definition)

I've already argued to death that math is not UNDERSTOOD by all and hence not universal and Mowicz said the same thing, and you agreed with him but still were demeaning to me in your post.

The only facts I was arguing were yours when you tried to say that the concept of 8 is understood by all. You're the one that seems to have a problem with that fact.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I did not mean that personal opinions should be the deciding factors of making someone a volunteer. I meant more along the lines that your tone/attitude in the comment I quoted is exactly the type of post that I get warned for.

Like I said before, I wasn’t trying to be rude or express a certain “attitude” in my post. I apologize if you think that.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

And I agreed that math is the same EVERYWHERE, but it's not universal because my definition of universal is "understood by all." (which is not a made up definition)

I've already argued to death that math is not UNDERSTOOD by all and hence not universal and Mowicz said the same thing, and you agreed with him but still were demeaning to me in your post.

Mowicz said math is universal. I agree with that. You said math is not universal. I don’t agree with that. Lets just agree to disagree.

In regards to the posts, I must say that some of your posts also seemed extremely demeaning and they were very offensive. Nonetheless, this can go on forever. I am sure we both have better things to do with our time.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

The only facts I was arguing were yours when you tried to say that the concept of 8 is understood by all. You're the one that seems to have a problem with that fact.

It actually seems that Mowicz disagreed with this. He mentioned that universality is not about accessibility. The statement that universality is not about accessibility completely contradicts your tribe example. Yet, you still agreed with Mowicz....

I had no problem with this. In fact, in an earlier post, I agreed with you. (below)

Originally Posted by rrtt

I haven't heard of this example myself but I can imagine it's true. This would be an exception. If you read my post again, I said math is the closest thing we have to a universal language. By no means did I say that it is an absolute universal language.....

Anyways, this is getting redundant. I say we end it here.

I dunno what it is about these forums, but they're stressing me out lately, haha. So much drama! Does this happen every year? It feels like everyone's generally a bit stressed out, perhaps by midterms?

Anyway, the only thing that's really happening here is the discrepancy between what the definition of 'universal' is...and as you've both touched upon, it's an arbitrary definition! Without resorting to "I'm right!" "No I'm right!" tactics, no one is going to win here.

To Cheri: I don't quite agree with your definition of universal (that it needs to be understood)...because I think of it as more of a 'response' than a cognitive interpretation of the incoming information...as I said, there's no real way to 'prove' either definition is right...so the best I can do is try to give you reasons why I believe my definition is appropriate.


I think there are many examples...but perhaps the most effective one I can think of right now is fear. Human beings have fear as a built in response...an instinct. Hunger, Thirst, things like that, are also universal (note that we're not talking about 'languages' here anymore, because I've already agreed that Math isn't a 'universal language').

Sometimes we're afraid and don't even know why...it's a trait that everyone has in common. What could be more universal than something like this?


And of course, fear isn't a cognitive thing...sometimes we can make ourselves scared by thinking of something scary (or 'psyching ourselves out') but I still feel as though whenever I'm frightened, it's a response that I can't seem to help.



I guess I can also try to suggest why I feel your definition doesn't quite work...namely, for any given fact, there's at least one person on earth who doesn't know it. You're saying some people don't know math...some people are incapable of speech, some people are in comas, some people are brain damaged, etc. You can essentially play the same game, no matter what the candidate for being 'universal' is.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I dunno what it is about these forums, but they're stressing me out lately, haha. So much drama! Does this happen every year? It feels like everyone's generally a bit stressed out, perhaps by midterms?

Nah it's not just you. Seems like this place has just turned into a general forum for peeps to talk to each other rather than a place where students come to look for help.

Good day everyone,
Thanks for all reply and recommendations I really appreciated it so much. All your advices are very much welcome. Have a nice day and see you around.

Originally Posted by rrtt

I can guarantee you that most people in Romania or Georgia do not know English, and you absolutely should not expect them to know English. No one is going to cater to you just because you know English. Please get out of your little bubble.

It was weird when I went to Europe a couple of years ago the country I found that had the highest percentage of English speakers was the Czech Republic. I believe this is because after the cold war ended they realized that English was going to be the language that would help them out the most, I know it certainly helped me when I was there.

I don't think anybody is saying that you should expect someone in a foreign country to be able to speak English, but I think as time goes on you are going to see more and more people knowing English as their second language. I guess its all a momentum thing.

English is the international maritime language. So all you aspiring Tug Boat Captains should make sure you speak english.

Not gonna lie, I had a huge laugh as I went through this discussion. All y'all need to calm down!

That being said, I agree that English is a very important language, especially if you intend to conduct business. I do not expect everyone in a European country I am visiting to speak English, but from my experience it is generally fair to assume that at any major service provider (hotels, restaurants, museums, etc.) there will be at least a few staff who are capable of corresponding in English.

As for English's weaknesses, I'm surprised nobody touched on the most glaring weakness (unless someone did, and I missed it). When English is compared to many other languages, its most fatal flaw is the lack of rules for conjugation. Remember in French when you learned how to conjugate 'er' verbs, and 'ir' verbs, and all that other stuff I've forgotten? And then remember how frustrated you probably got because there were 20 ish 'irregular' verbs which didn't follow those rules? Well in English, almost every verb is irregular. There are very few rules which can be universally applied to English words to determine the proper conjugation given the tense and the subject. That is one of the reasons why people find it very difficult to learn English as a second language. I count myself as very lucky that I learned English first.

That's my two cents... I hope I was neutral enough that no one will tear me apart, but I suppose only time and a good bit of luck will tell with this forum!

Originally Posted by sniderj

Not gonna lie, I had a huge laugh as I went through this discussion. All y'all need to calm down!

That being said, I agree that English is a very important language, especially if you intend to conduct business. I do not expect everyone in a European country I am visiting to speak English, but from my experience it is generally fair to assume that at any major service provider (hotels, restaurants, museums, etc.) there will be at least a few staff who are capable of corresponding in English.

As for English's weaknesses, I'm surprised nobody touched on the most glaring weakness (unless someone did, and I missed it). When English is compared to many other languages, its most fatal flaw is the lack of rules for conjugation. Remember in French when you learned how to conjugate 'er' verbs, and 'ir' verbs, and all that other stuff I've forgotten? And then remember how frustrated you probably got because there were 20 ish 'irregular' verbs which didn't follow those rules? Well in English, almost every verb is irregular. There are very few rules which can be universally applied to English words to determine the proper conjugation given the tense and the subject. That is one of the reasons why people find it very difficult to learn English as a second language. I count myself as very lucky that I learned English first.

That's my two cents... I hope I was neutral enough that no one will tear me apart, but I suppose only time and a good bit of luck will tell with this forum!

I learned it 2nd and I'm doing just fine... xD Yay for learning at a young age.

haha. Agreed Cheri. Our minds are great with language learning when we're super young. Then we fall apart.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

I learned it 2nd and I'm doing just fine... xD Yay for learning at a young age.

I also learned it second, but I did live in Toronto so it's not like I wasn't in contact with English. It's a lot easier to learn it at a younger age, especially if you watched as much TV as I did XD

LOL @ Zombie threads

Originally Posted by Rossclot

English is the international maritime language. So all you aspiring Tug Boat Captains should make sure you speak english.

Pilots too!

Originally Posted by rrtt

Of course it isn’t a coincidence that India has the second most English speakers in the world....it was occupied by the British for over 300 years! If China ruled over India for more than 300 years, I am sure that India would have the second most Mandarin speakers in the world. The British ruled over India...they obviously left some of their traditions/customs behind. However, the fact that India has a lot of English speakers is not correlated with the growth of its economy. It is extremely elitist and snobby to think so....

Not trying to dwell on trivial matters, but the British only administered "India" proper for a bit under 200 years.