Originally Posted by Elliott779

The date a plane is built is COMPLETELY irrelevant..

Source: I'm a pilot.

Lol, yeah....

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Firstly, the idea of a "European model" is a North American construct, and an inaccurate one at that. There's a "Southern European" model, a "Germanic model", a "French model", a "Scandinavian model", and further divisions within those...

Second, it appears that you're using an economic gauge, and comparing Canada to either:
i. Southern European countries, who don't face quite the same economic demands and strains as we do (the demands of the average Portuguese are not fully comparable to the demands of the average Canadian), or ii. countries in the Anglosphere (eg. Ireland), who follow an economic path quite similar to our own. In both cases, we don't get any compelling proof of our government looking 'marginally competent' against those using the 'European model', since one comparison is flawed a priori (we'll always look good when we compare ourselves to 'poorer' countries, won't we?) while the other is basically a comparison to a smaller, slightly whiter version of ourselves (without the U.S. to help us out).

Let's look outside the economic sphere for a bit. Compare the murder rate, the incarceration rate, the number of repeat offenders, etc. in Canada with that of many (most?) northern European & Scandinavian countries (on the whole, nations with a higher overall and city-based population density than Canada) and you'll see that our 'tough on crime' paradigm doesn't work. That's just one example of how Canada doesn't measure up when we use a social gauge - there's plenty of others, I'm sure. Add to this that even within the economic sphere, many northern European and Scandinavian nations are doing just as well (this comparison is valid, since the general demands of the average Canadian are roughly similar to those of the average Netherlander, for example), if not better, than we are...

You're arguing against points I didn't make, because you didn't look at my post in context to the ones it was referencing. The only point I was trying to make was that there is no correlation between rates of taxation and the "effectiveness" of the government. You can have a competent/incompetent government with high rates of taxation, and a competent/incompetent government with low rates of taxation. Someone had mentioned that European governments have a high rate of taxation, and more effective government- I only intended to point out that this was an erroneous point. And while there are certainly many different models within Europe, for the purposes of replying to this I assumed were using the definition from the first post of higher taxes + services.

There are definitely European countries with more effective governments than us, that have high taxes. Sweden would be a prime example of where people get a high return on the tax dollars collected by their government. There are also several counter examples, some of which were already listed.

For the record, I made no claims about being "tough on crime", or other conservative in nature view points. I tend to disagree with harsher sentencing, but that's not something I talked about at all in my post.

love wikipedia citations

Originally Posted by Marlowe

....

Oh, apologies. I wasn't directing the bulk of my post as a response to yours. It was delivered confusingly, sorry about that. I suppose I was using it to "illustrate" my argument, rather than the other way 'round

I was not and am not ignoring anyone's points, as some might suggest... But I initially made the argument that the Conservatives now have their own "sponsorship disaster" and they can't seem to brush it off now... It's a Sponsorship scandal, and those who insist they've "out argued' me have ignored that point. It's a damning point against the Conservatives. The Liberals lost their power 7 years ago because the Sponsorship Scandal made liberal voters (those with morals) chose to vote for someone else. And now the Conservatives have the exact same thing with $50 million spent during a recession to give Huntsville new gazebos far from the conference location, airport upgrades at airports that weren't used, and paved road that lead to nowhere. It's a %$#@ing sponsorship scandal, that you say the Liberals were voted out for, but people continue to support the Conservatives after they've done the same thing.

My final word: Give the Conservatives 7 years to regroup/reorganize/restructure like the Liberals. Stop bashing the Liberals for what they did years ago, and defending the Conservatives for what they're doing right now... That's textbook hyprocritical.

/study time.

More like it was stolen, and there was a newer one written only a month later:
http://www.canada.com/news/decision-...294/story.html

Now there is going to be an investigation. Not valid at all, and it might be a criminal offence for whoever leaked it in the first place.

ROFL! You're soooo wrong. The leak was not illegal. It was just unprofessional. And the "investigation" and the "criminal charges" are only going against the Conservatives XD You really need to look into this before responding.

and now you're going to blame it on "Ignatieff".

http://www.nationalpost.com/spending...236/story.html

This is why I said I was going to stop responding to your arguments... They are ignorant of my previous response, and they don't include a valid rebuttal.

Originally Posted by mike_302

ROFL! You're soooo wrong. The leak was not illegal. It was just unprofessional. And the "investigation" and the "criminal charges" are only going against the Conservatives XD You really need to look into this before responding.

and now you're going to blame it on "Ignatieff", when the document was sent out to the Conservative government departments that were involved in the actual investigation.

Did I say it was going to be against the liberals?! NO, I did not. read the post before you make conclusions. It also was, because it was due to be out AFTER the election and only when parliament is sitting http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/En...dmin_e_41.html

and if you need more information on this topic: it:http://www.calgaryherald.com /news/...gadr op_story

I don't need any links to documents XD I've read everythign you've linked to me before. You're statement that "this is not relevant" is so far out of line, I believe it discredits everything you've said. I'm not even going to ask the question... It's a simple statement: The Conservative government committed the equivaletn to the sponsorship scandal, the report has not been officially released, but critical thinking will tell you all you need to know: There's no denying that the Conservatives hid a $50 mill budget that went to pay for gazebos, airports, and infrastructure that is has largely sat unused, in a time of a recesion. What they did is illegal, and when the report is finally due out, I PROMISE that there will be an investigation and charges will be laid.

Here's something you didn't know: The Sponsorship scandal went down the exact same way with the old Liberals. When the story was leaked, days before the report was due out, the Liberals "prorogued" government and we went into an election where the Liberals were voted down.

Regardless, you go vote conservative, and call all of the Liberals stupid for the sponsorship scandal that played out and was equivalent to the situation that your favourite party is now experiencing.

Hypocrites... They're hypocritical.

Originally Posted by mike_302

I don't need any links to documents XD I've read everythign you've linked to me before. You're statement that "this is not relevant" is so far out of line, I believe it discredits everything you've said. I'm not even going to ask the question... It's a simple statement: The Conservative government committed the equivaletn to the sponsorship scandal, the report has not been officially released, but critical thinking will tell you all you need to know: There's no denying that the Conservatives hid a $50 mill budget that went to pay for gazebos, airports, and infrastructure that is has largely sat unused, in a time of a recesion. What they did is illegal, and when the report is finally due out, I PROMISE that there will be an investigation and charges will be laid.

Here's something you didn't know: The Sponsorship scandal went down the exact same way with the old Liberals. When the story was leaked, days before the report was due out, the Liberals "prorogued" government and we went into an election where the Liberals were voted down.

Regardless, you go vote conservative, and call all of the Liberals stupid for the sponsorship scandal that played out and was equivalent to the situation that your favourite party is now experiencing.

Hypocrites... They're hypocritical.

Did I actually say "This is not relevant"? in mentioning this topic? Now you're making stuff up, and I guess I can't be surprised...:rolleyes : I know how the liberal sponsorship scandal went down. Over 100 million went out. I am not downplaying the current situation, but this is only one part of the report. If everything was done with just a chapter of a report/law, could you imagine what Ottawa would be like? If you read only a certain chapter, you are missing the majority of the information. It was obvious that this was done to try to hurt the conservative campaign and it is bad that others stoop to this level. I would like to see what the WHOLE report says before I make any conclusions.

Originally Posted by mike_302

I don't need any links to documents XD I've read everythign you've linked to me before. You're statement that "this is not relevant" is so far out of line, I believe it discredits everything you've said. I'm not even going to ask the question... It's a simple statement: The Conservative government committed the equivaletn to the sponsorship scandal, the report has not been officially released, but critical thinking will tell you all you need to know: There's no denying that the Conservatives hid a $50 mill budget that went to pay for gazebos, airports, and infrastructure that is has largely sat unused, in a time of a recesion. What they did is illegal, and when the report is finally due out, I PROMISE that there will be an investigation and charges will be laid.

Here's something you didn't know: The Sponsorship scandal went down the exact same way with the old Liberals. When the story was leaked, days before the report was due out, the Liberals "prorogued" government and we went into an election where the Liberals were voted down.

Regardless, you go vote conservative, and call all of the Liberals stupid for the sponsorship scandal that played out and was equivalent to the situation that your favourite party is now experiencing.

Hypocrites... They're hypocritical.

You can't really conclude anything from 5 pages that were leaked. Obviously whoever leaked the report decided to leak stuff that would cause the most outrage. You need to wait for the full report to have an opinion on what they did or didn't do with the money.

Originally Posted by mike_302

ROFL! You're soooo wrong. The leak was not illegal. It was just unprofessional. And the "investigation" and the "criminal charges" are only going against the Conservatives XD You really need to look into this before responding.

and now you're going to blame it on "Ignatieff".

http://www.nationalpost.com/spending...236/story.html

This is why I said I was going to stop responding to your arguments... They are ignorant of my previous response, and they don't include a valid rebuttal.

Of course it was illegal to relase the document, either way now tax payers money will be spent on finding out which idiot leaked the documents.

Originally Posted by jo87

Of course it was illegal to relase the document, either way now tax payers money will be spent on finding out which idiot leaked the documents.

If somebody felt strongly enough about wrong-doing in the government to do something that'll cost them their job/livelihood, they should be protected by the populous, not disparaged and thrown in jail. Accountability and some level of transparency shouldn't be too much to expect from a government.

Originally Posted by Tailsnake

If somebody felt strongly enough about wrong-doing in the government to do something that'll cost them their job/livelihood, they should be protected by the populous, not disparaged and thrown in jail. Accountability and some level of transparency shouldn't be too much to expect from a government.

I'm not saying this document should have been transparent the entire time, because there was an investigation that had to happen but... Watch the video I linked in the other thread regarding Conservatives... And look at the past 5 years. The Conservatives that everyone wants to put in place as a Majority will make the concept of "transparency", a thing of the past.

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but to the people who say that the Liberals were able to erase the deficit and create a surplus while they were in power, how do you think they got this money? The Conservative created GST that they were promising to get rid of. Yes, the 90s saw some great budgets, but the GST certainly helped create this surplus. They also cut military and health care spending during this time, which Liberals are supposedly fighting for (health care that is, even though it is clear that the NDP are the only choice for that issue). I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A major problem with Canadian democracy is that it is becoming more and more like America's two party system. It is becoming too Liberal-Conservative favoured, and less attention is being paid to other parties who could make a difference. But, the point I make about the Liberals riding the GST train, it just goes to show that cooperation is necessary for success. The Liberals most likely said they'd axe the GST just to get elected to office, but soon realized they could generate a lot of profit from it. Look at the success of Scandinavian countries that openly practice cooperation. Sweden and Denmark have the exact same government formation as us (parliamentary democracy, constitutional monarchy), yet they are so successful, both socially and economically. If we break from these distinctions and do what is best for us, the people, whether it is Liberal or Conservative, and stop elected this politicians that are just there to gain power (they're all in it for themselves, Mr. Harper), maybe we can see some progress.