I was in forth grade. Teacher came in, told us what happen and started tearing up. Our parents were called to pick us up shortly after....

Originally Posted by Grover

I'm pretty sure she never said it justified it, she was simply pointing out what she feels was the cause of it all.

Putting words in people's mouths is bad, especially over a touchy subject such as this.

Thanks Grover.

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

Wow the ignorance of your statement astounds me. 9/11 was a wake up call? You make is sound as though some of the blame must lie with innocent americans for simply living well. An area like Afghanistan doesn't live as well off, but is the US or other western countries to blame for it? Maybe you should have a good hard look at your religion to start. It's interesting that unless an islamic country has massive amounts of oil, they usually live in intense poverty (Afghanistan is a great example), but when the interpretation of a religion dictates that half the population shouldn't be allowed to be educated, or that a book trumps the very science and technology that leads to a better way of life you shouldn't be suprised that they live in such dire conditions.

9/11 was the result of a group of people with childlike beliefs that this imaginary man in the sky wanted them to kill people who didn't believe in the same imaginary man. While the west may also have people with these same childlike beliefs, unlike islamic extremists, seem to take it out on others a lot less. The US is not to blame for deciding to set up a starbucks...

Also, I fail to see why everyone talking about Afghanistan is so horrible. The group responsible was in afghanistan and was being harboured by the Taliban... the UN sanctioned the war in Afghanistan, and the people there are far better off now than under the taliban.

No, I never said that killing those people was justified, or that anyone but the perpetrators were to blame. Please stop twisting my words. I hate it when people do that.

The doctrines that the Taliban or extremist groups follow are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM. Also, it is not MY religion, just because I am saying that you should research into the history of the US role in Afghanistan, does not mean I am muslim. I do not believe in any religion so please don't generalize.

And it's not everyone talking about Afghanistan that is so horrible. It's that they had no CLUE about what was going on there before 9/11 and it took a tragic event such as that for them to actually take action to help out.

Also, why are you so disposed to start an argument? Just relax. calm down. go take a big dump or something, come back, and let me know how you feel.

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

I disagree that there's "no hope" for afghanistan. I think the mission's goal wasn't the correct line of action. The goal should have been to kill Bin Laden, and thin out Al qaeda... as of may 1st that was reached, and no one would deny that Al-Qaeda is a lot weaker than it was. But the mistake the US, and Nato made was assuming they could serve democracy on a platter. The US had a long and brutal revolution, a revolution they started and they won. No one gave it to them. The people of Afghanistan will have strive for revolution themselves, and having seen the events in the middle east for the better part of the year, I think they will... eventually

Yes I agree. Both my sister and mother went back to Afghanistan last year and having grown up there, they see a lot of changes for the better. Sometimes it's good to exercise less pessimism and cynicism Amardeep. Not everything is doomed to failure as you see fit.

Originally Posted by dsalvatore

This.




To simplify 9/11 into that one sentence is extremely ignorant of you, sorry. There was much more at work than Al Qaeda simply deciding to slam planes into towers full of innocent people just because Americans don't believe in the same God. Granted, Al Qaeda doesn't give two ****s about innocent lives, but it wasn't ever that simple. Al Qaeda is a monster born and raised by the CIA after all, and Bin Laden was an agent for the States just like Saddam was- there is a LOT more politics at work.



I think we all agree that it doesn't make any sense for Al Qaeda to kill innocent Americans just because they have beef with the U.S. So there's no justification for the U.S. killing innocent Afghans just because they have beef with the Taliban.



Nobody is better off after war...Just ask the Afghans, has the violence stopped? Are they leading better quality lives? Ask Iraq...Yeah Saddam is gone, but the sectarian violence has escalated so profoundly since the war that no one is safe anymore.

Of course it's not that simple, and im 100% sure events like this would take place in a world without religion, but the way in which Bin Laden was able to garner support for his beliefs was through using islam. In the end, it was his use of one religion against another (I know obviously not everyone who was killed wasn't muslim).

The idea that the CIA and the US built Al-Qaeda is bull... Yes, the US supplied money to a third party that then sold arms to the Mujahadeen, but the US never actually sent operatives to train anyone, or no evidence has yet to be found of that. Bin Laden's initial anger at the US was however due to religion. He reached out to the Saudi's to offer his support in protecting them from the violence that was going on in the country, but they turned to the US. He disliked the idea of westerners being in such a holy place (as he saw it).

It's called a war, innocent people will be killed. And in the end, I think the countries a hell of a lot better off. Yes, they still have a long way to go, but at least girls can get an education, people can live their lives without fear of being stoned to death for the suspicion of adultry. The night is darkest just before the dawn after all.

And in terms of Iraq... no violence has subsided substantiall since the surge. The country isn't on the verge of civil war as it once was, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Originally Posted by fatcat

No, I never said that killing those people was justified, or that anyone but the perpetrators were to blame. Please stop twisting my words. I hate it when people do that.

The doctrines that the Taliban or extremist groups follow are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM. Also, it is not MY religion, just because I am saying that you should research into the history of the US role in Afghanistan, does not mean I am muslim. I do not believe in any religion so please don't generalize.

And it's not everyone talking about Afghanistan that is so horrible. It's that they had no CLUE about what was going on there before 9/11 and it took a tragic event such as that for them to actually take action to help out.

Also, why are you so disposed to start an argument? Just relax. calm down. go take a big dump or something, come back, and let me know how you feel.

Of course their views were not representative of islam... yet the "mainstream" view of islam isn't really islam either then? The Taliban were following the doctrine quite well when it came to imposing many of the barbaric laws included in islam... the muslims you speak of don't. Not that that's a bad thing. It's good that someone can read something about having to kill an apostate and realize it's ridiculous to do that, but you cannot deny that the Taliban was following the religion fairly closely. There are other aspects of their conduct that are not representative, but you cannot just pretend that if they do something you don't agree with, they can't be following islam or conducting theselves and their country in relation to islam.

And obviously this isn't just islam, christianity is the same. If anyone actually followed much of what the new or old testment said, they'd condone just as much horrible stuff... killing you're neightbour if they chose to work on the sabbath for example. But for the most part in countries that are considered "christian" (which the US techniqually isn't, but it's people are probably the most religious in the western world), you don't see them follow their religion to a t. But there are many islamic countries that do. Iran and Saudi Arabia for example... Afghanistan was much the same.

Also to your last point, I think that's bull... the US should never actually have gone into afghanistan as a full fledged war (although the outcome for peoples living standard has improved), the people of Afghanistan needed to do it themselves, that's the only way a country truly achieves a free society... it's not served to them. The US should have had the CIA track down Bin Laden, kill him and go after others involved and kill them to.

Im quite calm, I'm not really arguing, just disagree with your point of view... i don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Originally Posted by fatcat

No, I never said that killing those people was justified, or that anyone but the perpetrators were to blame. Please stop twisting my words. I hate it when people do that.

The doctrines that the Taliban or extremist groups follow are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM. Also, it is not MY religion, just because I am saying that you should research into the history of the US role in Afghanistan, does not mean I am muslim. I do not believe in any religion so please don't generalize.

And it's not everyone talking about Afghanistan that is so horrible. It's that they had no CLUE about what was going on there before 9/11 and it took a tragic event such as that for them to actually take action to help out.

Also, why are you so disposed to start an argument? Just relax. calm down. go take a big dump or something, come back, and let me know how you feel.

And I apologize for assuming you were muslim, but my statement still stands and the "you" would directed to those you said saw the western way of life and felt they needed to kill 3000 innocent people to make them fell better

and R.I.P. the 48,644 Afghan and 1,690,903 Iraqi people that paid the price for a crime they didnt do. its just the lives of Americans is that precious.

Also , in lebanon vs israel war 15x the people died of the israelis than lebanese but they labeled lebanese as terrorists. Disgusting

and R.I.P. the 48,644 Afghan and 1,690,903 Iraqi people that paid the price for a crime they didnt do. its just the lives of Americans that is precious.

Also , in lebanon vs israel war 15x the people died because of the israeli attacks than lebanese but they labeled lebanese as terrorists. Disgusting

I was in eighth grade, my mom came to pick me up at school during recess. I don't remember the teachers saying anything about it the next day at school or anything like that.

Originally Posted by fatcat

No, I never said that killing those people was justified, or that anyone but the perpetrators were to blame. Please stop twisting my words. I hate it when people do that.

The doctrines that the Taliban or extremist groups follow are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM. Also, it is not MY religion, just because I am saying that you should research into the history of the US role in Afghanistan, does not mean I am muslim. I do not believe in any religion so please don't generalize.

And it's not everyone talking about Afghanistan that is so horrible. It's that they had no CLUE about what was going on there before 9/11 and it took a tragic event such as that for them to actually take action to help out.

Also, why are you so disposed to start an argument? Just relax. calm down. go take a big dump or something, come back, and let me know how you feel.

What we're interpreting your words as is exactly what you meant.

Because if you didn't mean it, there is absolutely NO REASON to mention wake up calls and "how we live well." It's irrelevant. Innocent Americans are not the issue. But they were the casualties. How the live is IRRELEVANT. I can't stress this enough. I don't even have to explain why it is.

You're gonna start bombing every ****ing person that lives a bit better than you?

Also, people replying to you isn't "starting arguments" and not being calm. L2forum, noobsauce.

Originally Posted by Chevalier

@hawkes... well said i believe that you are correct for the most part. our society in general has a common belief that extremists and terrorists are of one group and of one kind. we do not openly acknowledged the fact that our actions and the actions of our governments in the current date and in the past could be considered terrorist activities because those notions simply do not help our cause. i think its important to understand that a great tragedy occurred on 9/11, yet at the same time its important to understand the route cause of the tragedy and ensure that we do not make such mistakes again.

... also i sort of didnt get this part ... lol

The part you've quoted was sort of a converse view of American relations. Showing how we'd look at it if other nations were to mimic the actions of the US government in the last decade and last few decades. I believe the point was made to show that by any other government we would see the action as terrorism, perhaps a war crime and a matter of extreme humanitarian issue. However, since the conduct was American, they have been spun as "self defense" tactics, creating the non-existent force that had to be "fought back".

Originally Posted by lawleypop

What we're interpreting your words as is exactly what you meant.

Because if you didn't mean it, there is absolutely NO REASON to mention wake up calls and "how we live well." It's irrelevant. Innocent Americans are not the issue. But they were the casualties. How the live is IRRELEVANT. I can't stress this enough. I don't even have to explain why it is.

You're gonna start bombing every ****ing person that lives a bit better than you?

Also, people replying to you isn't "starting arguments" and not being calm. L2forum, noobsauce.

No, it's not what I meant. If that's your rationale, then you might as well hold a mirror up to your face and have a conversation with yourself since your so convinced you know everything about a country you've never stepped in.

Innocent Americans are the issue, so are Innocent Iraqis, and Afghanis. It is VERY RELEVANT because they paid the price for corporate and political greed of the United States. When the US corporations go into Mexico and exploits their water resources so that they can bring it back and sell it to americans in bottles and the Mexicans have no water to drink, yes livign standard does become an issue. When they go into afghanistan and France and Germany invest in afgahnistans mineral resources without giving anything back to the economy so that they can improve their own countries economy, yes it is an issue. When US corporations dump their nuclear chemicals into India and cause thousands of genetic disorders among the surrouding inhabitants so that they don't have to dump it in their own country, yes it is an issue. When the IMF bails out big Banks in the west while the African nations are desperate for loans, it is an issue.

Bombing them of course is not hte solution, but how why don't you stop being so selfish and think about people on the other side of the border. They are not just irrational violent prone animals. There families have probably been affected, hteir livelihoods, etc. Just something to consider.

If I want to talk about American standard of living, then I will. Why are you making it taboo to do so? What, does it make you uncomfortable? That is YOUR problem.

I am going to afghanistan next year. By all means, i invite you to come along. Maybe then you will not be so defensive and brash when you see for yourself.

I am not even going to bother replying to you anymore. My time is better spent elsewhere than on you. It's liek talking to a brick, nothing is getting through.

... well at least no one's arguing it was a conspiracy.


...yet.