Originally Posted by lawleypop

What we're interpreting your words as is exactly what you meant.

Because if you didn't mean it, there is absolutely NO REASON to mention wake up calls and "how we live well." It's irrelevant. Innocent Americans are not the issue. But they were the casualties. How the live is IRRELEVANT. I can't stress this enough. I don't even have to explain why it is.

You're gonna start bombing every ****ing person that lives a bit better than you?

Also, people replying to you isn't "starting arguments" and not being calm. L2forum, noobsauce.

There are so many things wrong with this.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

What we're interpreting your words as is exactly what you meant.

Interpretation =/= exactly what one means. That's why it's called an interpretation. See: The Bible.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Because if you didn't mean it, there is absolutely NO REASON to mention wake up calls and "how we live well." It's irrelevant. Innocent Americans are not the issue. But they were the casualties. How the live is IRRELEVANT. I can't stress this enough. I don't even have to explain why it is.

How they live is irrelevant? That's like saying, "The fact that they were Jewish is irrelevant. The Nazis randomly handpicked the people that they marked."

Originally Posted by lawleypop

You're gonna start bombing every ****ing person that lives a bit better than you?

You do know what a terrorist is, right?

its a conspiracy i tell you ... A CONSPIRACY !!!

i was at home just got back from school in dubai , and i remember thinking ... damn america got ****ed......6 years later i figured.. they ****ed themselves and the nwo is in action.

also, came across this earlier, and I found it really moving:

Originally Posted by jetgirl78

Ten Years Later: A Tribute 9/11
My favorite 9/11 tribute in New York City can be found in Bryant Park. 2,819 empty chairs on the lawn facing the site where the World Trade Center once stood, one chair for every life lost. The number of empty chairs captures the enormity of the lives lost and the stark emptiness of it just drives home the point that I hope is never forgotten. 2,819 people were here one moment and gone the next. 2,819 went to work or boarded a plane one morning ten years ago thinking it would be another ordinary day and they never came home.

I would recommend people to read about the MOST Violent Septerber 11th attack in the 20th Century.

9/11 1973, The CIA killed an elected Chilean leader, Salvador Allende, and put in place a military dictator. No one talks about this event. But events like this one commited by Americans are engraved in the hearts of Latinos.

The coup d'etat led to countless murders.

Yes, innocent Americans die. However, America has killed far more innocent civilians than Al Qaeda could dream to achieve.

So America has lost 3000 civies. That's after it divided Korea into 2 states resulting in Korean War, invaded Vietnam, bombed Laos, destroyed Latino countries to fight "communism", turned Iraq into a bloodbath, and invaded Afghanistan.

Did you know that America also invaded China during the Boxer rebellion ?

What about the Bolschevik revolution ? USA invaded Russia too.

I can go on and on. My point is : America has so much blood on its hands, I really don't understand why people wipe for Americans dying but not for people dying by the hands of Americans.

Are Americans superior ?

Is it because they are more advanced in technology, "fashion", or "way of living" than other nations/societies ?

What is it about Americans that is so attractive ?

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

Of course their views were not representative of islam... yet the "mainstream" view of islam isn't really islam either then? The Taliban were following the doctrine quite well when it came to imposing many of the barbaric laws included in islam... the muslims you speak of don't. Not that that's a bad thing. It's good that someone can read something about having to kill an apostate and realize it's ridiculous to do that, but you cannot deny that the Taliban was following the religion fairly closely.

It's funny... Muslims argue between each other just do define what that "religion" and its "laws" are and you've come up with an answer.

Why don't you educate all of muslims ? (Shite , Sunnis, sufis...)

I don't remember reading about burqa during the time of the Prophet. Nor do I remember reading or hearing about beating women in the streets.

Killling an apostate ? Oh come one, that's just an excuse used by soem sunnis to kill shiites and vice versa. There is no command to kill apostates in the Quran, while there is command to punish adultery (100 lashes).

Were the Taliban following the religion closely ? I believe in some aspects , yes very. In others, (regarding treatment of women) no not really.

By the way, hitting women goes against the Pashtunwali (code of Pashtuns). Taliban are mostly Pashtuns. Personally, i don't see why they would hit women, since it goes agaisnt islam and their ethnic code.

By the way, do Muslims hate the westerners or christians or jews ? Some yes. It's much more complicated. Life isn't about white vs black, christians vs muslims or this vs that. In most cases, it is complex.

Muslims have been killing each other after the death of the Prophet for "Power." You had Abbasids who wanted power, you had ethnic turks (seljuks) who wanted power, and crazy Wahabis.

It's actually not that different from every conflict in history (regardless if it involves religion or not).

Welcome to human nature. Trust me, I wish it was THAT simple to label just 1 group or 1 religion or all religions for that matter. The fact of the matter is, eliminate all religions and war would not be slowed down a bit.

Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7

]

Where are you guys getting the absurd notion that the US and/or Afghanistan supported and supplied the Taliban during the Soviet invasion? The Taliban did not exist at that time, you are mistaking it for the Mujahideen which was a group of freedom fighters trained by the CIA (although Osama was part of the Mujahideen and many of them did follow into the Taliban).

Anyways 9/11 did impact my family in a large way, I remember I was in grade 2 at the time (finished it actually and was summer) and we went back to Bangladesh for the summer vacation. My mom decided to stay their for the year to attend my uncles wedding (me my mom and sis my dad was in the states). At the time me and my mom stayed in the US with a Visa which was soon to be expired, my sis was born their so she was a citizen and my dad had a workers visa or permit w.e you call it. While in BD the US embassy said that renewing it won't be a problem, but soon after 9/11 happened and the US immediately went into tight security mode regarding everything and unfortunately our visas didn't get renewed. My dad meanwhile in the states had to quit a decent job, sell everything and apply for immigration to Canada, and now here I am lol. Sucked was we were one year away from applying for citizenship in the US lol.

Originally Posted by EngStud

I would recommend people to read about the MOST Violent Septerber 11th attack in the 20th Century.

9/11 1973, The CIA killed an elected Chilean leader, Salvador Allende, and put in place a military dictator. No one talks about this event. But events like this one commited by Americans are engraved in the hearts of Latinos.

The coup d'etat led to countless murders.

Yes, innocent Americans die. However, America has killed far more innocent civilians than Al Qaeda could dream to achieve.

So America has lost 3000 civies. That's after it divided Korea into 2 states resulting in Korean War, invaded Vietnam, bombed Laos, destroyed Latino countries to fight "communism", turned Iraq into a bloodbath, and invaded Afghanistan.

Did you know that America also invaded China during the Boxer rebellion ?

What about the Bolschevik revolution ? USA invaded Russia too.

I can go on and on. My point is : America has so much blood on its hands, I really don't understand why people wipe for Americans dying but not for people dying by the hands of Americans.

Are Americans superior ?

Is it because they are more advanced in technology, "fashion", or "way of living" than other nations/societies ?

What is it about Americans that is so attractive ?

Didn't someone raise a point like this before? And didn't I shut it down? And here I was doing my best to lurk quietly. But I'm kinda getting the sense you're trying to use history to justify your anger/dislike of America.

War and/or rebellion/revolution/coup is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION than a surprise attack on the civilians of a peaceful nation (a nation without a war going on in its borders). Also, your big example is 1973. Whether the CIA outright killed him is debated (some witnesses suggest suicide). I dont condone the action at all, but America is not the only country to do this - far from it. Also, only history majors talk about events like that on a daily/weekly basis now. If your going to try to historical argument get better examples.

You can argue everyone has blood on their hands. Americans are no worse, probably better than some even *if anyone the USSR is worse - Stalin alone killed about 30 million people with an enforced famine in the span of a few years... nevermind all the other stuff he managed to do in his 20-25 or so years in power). It doesn't matter anyway because there is NO justification for what happened on 9/11. Innocent people died - the majority of them ordinary civilians who had nothing to do with the FP of the US. Its also totally irrational to blame a country, race or religion for the action of individuals. Hate Bush or Nixon and their staff if you want. Hate bin Laden and his group. But don't hate Americans or Muslims.

You know what, this sort of irrational blaming is what leads to the attacks and the hatred that made them possible.

Now onto the "why are Americans so special argument."
1) Are you watching an American, Canadian or British/NATO alliance news network? You're living in Canada. 9/11 is kinda important over on this side of the ocean because it HAPPENED TO/NEAR US. I'm sure if you were to go to Russia they would be more interested in the recent hockey tragedy, for example.
2) Seeing what was one of the most powerful nations in the world being attacked is a little more monumental from a historical perspective than road side bomb #3642 in Afghanistan or execution #462 in N. Korea.

Originally Posted by EngStud

It's funny... Muslims argue between each other just do define what that "religion" and its "laws" are and you've come up with an answer.

Why don't you educate all of muslims ? (Shite , Sunnis, sufis...)

I don't remember reading about burqa during the time of the Prophet. Nor do I remember reading or hearing about beating women in the streets.

Killling an apostate ? Oh come one, that's just an excuse used by soem sunnis to kill shiites and vice versa. There is no command to kill apostates in the Quran, while there is command to punish adultery (100 lashes).

Were the Taliban following the religion closely ? I believe in some aspects , yes very. In others, (regarding treatment of women) no not really.

By the way, hitting women goes against the Pashtunwali (code of Pashtuns). Taliban are mostly Pashtuns. Personally, i don't see why they would hit women, since it goes agaisnt islam and their ethnic code.

By the way, do Muslims hate the westerners or christians or jews ? Some yes. It's much more complicated. Life isn't about white vs black, christians vs muslims or this vs that. In most cases, it is complex.

Muslims have been killing each other after the death of the Prophet for "Power." You had Abbasids who wanted power, you had ethnic turks (seljuks) who wanted power, and crazy Wahabis.

It's actually not that different from every conflict in history (regardless if it involves religion or not).

Welcome to human nature. Trust me, I wish it was THAT simple to label just 1 group or 1 religion or all religions for that matter. The fact of the matter is, eliminate all religions and war would not be slowed down a bit.

The Quaran, and both the Sunni and Shia hadith's condone "punishment" for apostates, two of them (very interestingly enough it's both of the above mentioned hadiths) command death. I love how you try to just toss it aside as not really anything to do with their religion... it's only a religious command in three "holy" books...

Also the quaran explicitly states that women should not be allowed to go outside without the attendance of their husband, brothers or father.

But Im in no means suggesting this is unique to islam... the bible, the torah and all the other religious books that makes ridiculous claims like that of the quaran are also full of shit... this shit just seems to be taken a lot more seriously by a certain group at this time...

[Quote removed by moderator - OP user request]

And how many of those inventions were invented by islamic women?

Also, other than the fact that women in many countries are extremely restricted (can't drive in saudi arabia, couldn't go to school in afghanistan, etc.), what did being muslim have to do with those inventions?

Should I also point out that the quaran ****ed up and seems to think that salt water and fresh water don't mix? Should I credit all muslims for that ridiculous untruth? No, and I wouldn't credit some amazing discoveries made by people who happen to be muslim to a religion, especially a religion that in many interpetations seems to condone restrictions in education (think here in Canada, many muslim parents were asking that their child not partake in music classes). Obviously this is an interpretation, and there are many interpretations is islam and any other religions. But I don't see how you can deny that for some reason many interpretations seem to support not educating half the population (half being females for some reason)...

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

The Quaran, and both the Sunni and Shia hadith's condone "punishment" for apostates, two of them (very interestingly enough it's both of the above mentioned hadiths) command death. I love how you try to just toss it aside as not really anything to do with their religion... it's only a religious command in three "holy" books...

Also the quaran explicitly states that women should not be allowed to go outside without the attendance of their husband, brothers or father.

But Im in no means suggesting this is unique to islam... the bible, the torah and all the other religious books that makes ridiculous claims like that of the quaran are also full of shit... this shit just seems to be taken a lot more seriously by a certain group at this time...

The Quran condones apostasy ?

Educate me with your great knowledge, what verse ?

The claim of women not going outside without a mahram is specially for women to be protected.

Women and inventions ? Was it a woman who invented the light bulb, transistor, discovered viruses ? I know about Marie curie and others, but they make the extremely small portion of "inventors" and "well known scientists".

Fresh water and salt don't mix ? Salt and fresh are not even words mentionned in the Quran. I doubt salt had an arabic word at that time. So basically, you belive that whatever some "Muslims" say is what Islam say.

Sayings of Muslim != Sayings of Islam

Originally Posted by Amardeep_S

And how many of those inventions were invented by islamic women?

Also, other than the fact that women in many countries are extremely restricted (can't drive in saudi arabia, couldn't go to school in afghanistan, etc.), what did being muslim have to do with those inventions?

Should I also point out that the quaran ****ed up and seems to think that salt water and fresh water don't mix? Should I credit all muslims for that ridiculous untruth? No, and I wouldn't credit some amazing discoveries made by people who happen to be muslim to a religion, especially a religion that in many interpetations seems to condone restrictions in education (think here in Canada, many muslim parents were asking that their child not partake in music classes). Obviously this is an interpretation, and there are many interpretations is islam and any other religions. But I don't see how you can deny that for some reason many interpretations seem to support not educating half the population (half being females for some reason)...

So a political ideology represents the religion. No where in the Quran does it state that Women cannot drive/should not be educated. The actions of a few crazed/obsessed men does not represent the Religion as a whole. This also applies to parents pulling their children out of music class. Women converts outnumber men by four to one, if the religion was truly demeaning towards them why would they even bother converting? Also this thread is dedicated to reflect/sympthaze with the victims of 9/11 not a "Islam is the Root of all Evil". If you want to have a conversation about the religion visit the MSA/Contact Dr Haddara. We indeed are distinct beings but we are all part of the human race. Being united is the key to our success.

Originally Posted by Commie8507

Women converts outnumber men by four to one, if the religion was truly demeaning towards them why would they even bother converting?

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34

Not demeaning at all.