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12 Point Grade Average Problem

 
Old 06-23-2009 at 12:14 AM   #16
hasheel
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McMaster's 12 point system underestimates ALL students' marks.
This post is about the 12 point grading system that McMaster has (one of the only schools that does) and why it's a highly flawed system of scoring everyone's GPA.

Usually schools give you percent grades and average out the grades which makes sense, but with the 12 point scale, in one simple average that computers do, people's GPA’s can drop upwards of ten percent. There is never a case where the student gets higher or even the same as what they deserve, it is always substantially lower.

Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent.

If you average out your own grades and then compare it to the point average at the bottom of your transcript you'll also see that your mark has been dropped by at least a couple percent. My mark has been underestimated by 6 percent and that’s assuming that I got the lowest percent in each point bracket. Since we don’t know our percent, but we do know the range, try it both ways. Average out the highest percentage you could have gotten and the lowest percentage you could have gotten (ex. a 9 and a 10 could be either 79% and 84% or 77% and 80%). In either case, that average will be higher than the one your transcript says. There is no mathematical way for McMaster to ever give you a GPA of what you actually got or higher, it is always significantly lower.

Another simpler example: if in two courses I get 78 percent and 82 percent, you would think that my average would be 80. It makes sense on a numerical level. Let’s convert that to points- 9 and 10. The average of the two points is 9.5, which is not an 80 percent; it is actually around a 78 percent. So according to McMaster, the average of 78 and 80 is 78. This point system essentially ‘screws you over’ as you don’t get the marks that you deserve and when applying to a higher level education you are competing with students from universities that give them proper representations of their marks.

At first, when I figured this out I thought maybe there was something I was missing- so I went to the registrar’s office looking for answers. I came out of there leaving them confused. All they said was “we don’t know what happens, we just get the grades from the faculties and put it in the computer and they churn out this number”. So after all the hard work done by professors and students around Mac to get their marks the highest it can be, their cumulative average is “churned out” by a computer that no one at registrar seems to understand and in turn is underestimated. They assume that any average is a fair average, and that averaging out a bunch of points with different weights (i.e. points 1-9 have a range of 3-4% while a 12 has a range of 10%) gives everyone a proper GPA. This is a very flawed way of taking someone’s average and is unfair to every registered student at McMaster.

I am going to the MSU to represent me on this and see if there is anything that could be done. It will not be difficult to change because the faculties are responsible for giving the grades to registrar (in the form of grade letters A+, A, B, etc.). To change that to percentages would be simple as professors would just have to calculate marks in more detail. Once these marks are sent to registrar, the computer would be able to average out the grades the way it does points and give everyone a proper representation of their GPA. It is neither the registrar’s nor the faculties’ faults but the fault of miscommunication between the two. I have gone to both the faculty offices and the registrar office and neither of them know anything about it and both directed me to the other office. Because of this simple mix-up, every single student at McMaster pays dearly.

For a GPA conversion visit http://careers.mcmaster.ca/students/...nversion-chart You'll notice that McMaster is one of the only school's that has a 12 point scale and that most universites use percent grades.

Please spread the word about this. Post it on your profile and message friends. If you have any questions or if you still don't quite get it, feel free to contact me. http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/no...41983&comments

Hasheel Lodhia
Old 06-23-2009 at 12:15 AM   #17
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Quit ranting. If you can get an 11.9, then don't complain, McMaster and any other university will certainly recognize your achievement.
If you're going to complain about the 12-point system, please suggest that courses should be pass or fail or that there should be standardized testing like the MCAT. How's that for fair?
Old 06-23-2009 at 12:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTGregD View Post
Well the quick answer is that they would see it as 3.9975 which rounds to 4.0. So there is no prejudice against a 12.0 scale; It converts fairly into a 4.0 scale and you get your score. But to be more specific, McMaster rounds to 1 decimal place, so TECHNICALLY it would show on your transcript as a 12.0 average (11.95 rounds up).

But as far as grad schools are concerned, you'd have a "virtual 4.0".
So then what would be the authors concern here then? Is it that the calculation of the 12.0 CGPA in the first place is unfair because the university uses Lower percentile ranging instead of basic averaging?
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Old 06-23-2009 at 12:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huzaifa47 View Post
So then what would be the authors concern here then? Is it that the calculation of the 12.0 CGPA in the first place is unfair because the university uses Lower percentile ranging instead of basic averaging?
I'm not really sure. GPAs (whether it be 4.0 or 12.0 or even 9.0 scales) are a fair way of evaluation. Everyone falls under it, so it's not like there is some way to circumvent it in order to make yourself appear better than someone else.
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Old 06-23-2009 at 12:42 AM   #20
feonateresa
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I don't understand this. I thought when calculating GPA, that actual grade percentages were used, how the hell is the 12-point scale accurate when it's designed to capture a range?

And on the conversion chart, the points on the 12-point scale don't represent all possible GPAs. Like 3.5 isn't up there, so what is it in terms of the 12-point?

I had a 9.5 so according to the chart I had between 3.3 and 3.7 .. huh?? :/
Old 06-23-2009 at 12:47 AM   #21
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To calculate your 4.0 scale average, you'll have to convert each course individually and then average them out.

The 12point scale is pretty accurate, it's more linear than the 4.0 scale. Which means it's more accurate than the 4.0 scale.
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Old 06-23-2009 at 12:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huzaifa47 View Post
So then what would be the authors concern here then? Is it that the calculation of the 12.0 CGPA in the first place is unfair because the university uses Lower percentile ranging instead of basic averaging?

Hey,

Well my whole point was that compared to universities that use percentages, we are being highly undercalcalculated. If you look at the conversion chart in my original post, it says that a point of 10 is the same as 80-84% in other universities which is the same as a 3.70 GPA. This is all fine. I don't have a problem with the chart, however I do have an issue with how mcmaster calculates that 10. If a 10 is equivalent to an average of 80-84 percent as the chart says, then the student should actually have an average of 80-84 percent. This however is not the case because the student's actual average could have been much higher than that. My post has nothing to do with gpa conversions. It's just saying that the final averaging of the points is wrong because that's what lowers everyone's percentage by upwards of ten percent. Try it for yourself. Take the percents of each of your courses and average them. Then map it on the gpa conversion graph. Then compare it to the point average on the bottom of your transcript and map that onto the gpa graph. Gauranteed it will be lower. Even if you get the lowest possible percent in each of your courses (ie if you decide a 10 to be an 80% and not 84.9%).

I'll do an explicit example.

Let's say the marks for ten courses are as follows: 8 8 8 8 9 9 10 12 12 12
The average of all these numbers is a 9.6 which is just over a 3.30 gpa according to the chart.

If mcmaster gives the percentages however (and lets calculate both the highest possible and lowest possible percentages) it would be:

Lowest = 73 73 73 73 77 77 80 90 90 90 = 79.6% which is also just over 3.30
Highest possible mark = 76 76 76 76 79 79 84 100 100 100 = 84.6% which is a 3.90 gpa.

Therefore, the 12 point system doesn't accurately give students the marks they actually get. They simply average out the points and as a result drop the majority of students' averages so then when it DOES get converted to final gpa scores by grad schools etc, it is seen as a lot lower. The whole messup happens at mac not during gpa conversion.

Hasheel

Last edited by hasheel : 06-23-2009 at 12:53 AM.
Old 06-23-2009 at 12:52 AM   #23
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I'm not really familiar with any universities that average grades using %marks instead of just straight averaging the GPA.

Could you give some examples?
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Old 06-23-2009 at 12:55 AM   #24
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But in the end all scales are like this and everyone in the entire world is affected by it :\

Edit: I take my words back, A LOT of people are affected by it.
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Old 06-23-2009 at 12:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTGregD View Post
I'm not really familiar with any universities that average grades using %marks instead of just straight averaging the GPA.

Could you give some examples?
http://www.sfu.ca/dean-gradstudies/f...rading/system/

It lists UBC, Guelph, Brock, Trent as %ones. But in other words all three types of systems are in use by major universities, so I guess there are pro's and con's to each that balance out?
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Old 06-23-2009 at 12:57 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTGregD View Post
I'm not really familiar with any universities that average grades using %marks instead of just straight averaging the GPA.

Could you give some examples?

Lakehead, Laurentian, Brock, Guelph, PEI, Queen's, Regina... There are a bunch. Just look below the chart to see which universities use which grading system:

http://careers.mcmaster.ca/students/...nversion-chart
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Old 06-23-2009 at 01:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huzaifa47 View Post
http://www.sfu.ca/dean-gradstudies/f...rading/system/

It lists UBC, Guelph, Brock, Trent as %ones. But in other words all three types of systems are in use by major universities, so I guess there are pro's and con's to each that balance out?
I'm fairly certain that Grad School administrators would use a fair way to evaluate %averages such as Guelph against the rest of the academic world that uses GPA averaging. I mean, I've never heard of Guelph students disproportionately getting into grad school vs. graduates at other universities.
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Old 06-23-2009 at 01:02 AM   #28
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They probably convert it to the 4.0 scale. The same way we convert our marks to the 4.0 scale. They convert each course individually and the average the results.
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Old 06-23-2009 at 01:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan523 View Post
They probably convert it to the 4.0 scale. The same way we convert our marks to the 4.0 scale. They convert each course individually and the average the results.
Yeah, you're most likely right.
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Old 06-23-2009 at 01:04 AM   #30
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The 12 point System is essentially a numerical version of the Alphabetical grading system many schools use. Saying it's uncommon is misdirection.

As far as the complaints go, they hold no water. Yes an 11.9 translated directly to a percentage is less than X amount of 90% marks and Y amount of lower marks averaged, but that doesn't matter since grad schools look at your marks on the 4.0 GPA scale which is even more skewed than the 12-point system.

The 4.0 GPA system is a system meant to reward consistency, so a near perfect mark isn't distinguished from a perfect one (a 93% compared to a 100%) but someone who can achieve near perfect/perfect marks all of the time is distinguished from someone who can only archive those marks some of the time. That's the whole point of the 4.0 GPA scale, it's not to give an accurate representation of your marks when converted back into a 12 point system or a percentage, it's to show a grad/professional school how capable you are of consistently giving good results. It's why a student with a few B's and C's but a really good overall average (high 80's low 90's) will likely score lower on the 4.0 scale than a student that consistently gets mid to low 80's because the 4.0 scale isn't measuring the absolute mark.

Anyway, to sum it up, there's nothing wrong with McMaster's system because everything get's converted to the 4.0 Scale which makes most of these complaints pointless.

BTW if you're scoring 3.9+ (IIRC the highest cutoff I've seen anywhere is 3.85) on the 4.0 scale you're the point where your actual marks are no longer relevant in differentiating you from other applicants and it's the rest of your application that now matters.

huzaifa47, lorend all say thanks to Tailsnake for this post.



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