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A Boys-only Grade School Proposed for Toronto

 
Old 10-21-2009 at 06:40 PM   #16
britb
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I think this is a bit related to the all black school idea they had a while back, since they are both looking is fix issues in specific populations.

I don't see either working. Sure, the boys (or blacks) might do better while in the school, but once they're out, it won't help them. The world is co-ed, and it doesn't function on a 'black-based curriculum/a curriculum more encriching to black students' (I forgot how they phrased it exactly - but the idea was to make a school that would be more appealing to black students, thus reducing the dropout rate).

I see both of these almost as a sort of coddling technique, where instead of learning to adapt, the students are being accomadated. Again, the world doesn't work like that - you have to look after yourself - and I think the students will suffer when the go the high school, university, etc because they'll have the idea in their heads that Mr. X or Dr. Y will make allowances for them because they're male or whatever.

Besides, in putting boys and other groups into seperate schools, aren't we acknowledging that they need special attention, that they can't succeed in "normal" school (i.e, that they are stupider than most of us?). Rather than empowering them, I think some will believe that they are much worse students than they really are, and thus not achieve their full potential.

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Old 10-21-2009 at 06:56 PM   #17
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I just want to start by saying that I don't have anything against single-sex schools. However, I personally think it would make more sense to look over the curriculum and find ways to teach the material in a way that will work for different learning styles.

Anyway, I read an article about this earlier, and I thought this part was interesting:

Quote:
Yet the jury is out on the benefits of single-sex schools. Serge Demers, an acting vice-president at Laurentian University who has studied the issue for Ontario's Literacy and Numeracy Secretariat, says if anything, girls benefit more.

"It's not the magic bullet," he said. "In some instances it does work out quite well; but in fact it works out better for girls than boys – which is the reverse reason of why folks try to implement it." Having a few classes where girls and boys are segregated seems to have better results than single-sex schools, he said.

The advocacy group People for Education has raised concerns about specialty schools "because of the tendency for that to divide populations, as opposed to bringing populations together," said spokeswoman Annie Kidder, citing research in Britain and Canada that shows a system of specialty schools can lead to "a fair amount of social segregation."
That's from thestar.com (article is called Schools plan calls for boys-only classes)
Old 10-21-2009 at 09:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by britb View Post
I don't see either working. Sure, the boys (or blacks) might do better while in the school, but once they're out, it won't help them. The world is co-ed, and it doesn't function on a 'black-based curriculum/a curriculum more encriching to black students' (I forgot how they phrased it exactly - but the idea was to make a school that would be more appealing to black students, thus reducing the dropout rate).

I agree, however people tend to be immature at a younger age and cannot concentrate at the task at hand. I think it's great to have a choice of going to a co-ed school or to a single-sex school. That way the kids can concentrate on building a strong base for their future education. Once they reach university you can trust they have matured enough to be able to concentrate on studies when they have to. There shouldn't be a problem with socializing unless the parent isolates the kid from the entire world. Kids go to parties and what not...

Also, yes the world is co-ed but if you can work with one gender you can work with the other. I don't see what the problem would be, it's work not a date.

Like I said, there's more to a kid's life than just home and school. I doubt there is a large percentage of kids that only go to school and stay at home and other than those two places, never see the light of day.
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Old 10-21-2009 at 09:32 PM   #19
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Well, first I thought how the hell does segregating boys from girls going to achieve their overall performance in school?

Sorry but, maybe girls are a "distraction" but it's up to parents to teach them good work habits OUTSIDE of the classroom.

Then I thought: too much testosterone. I don't think it'd be good for society. I think it would just make males more sexist. Anyone have thoughts on this? I don't have any proof, just something I would think would happen.
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Old 10-21-2009 at 09:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawleypop View Post
Then I thought: too much testosterone. I don't think it'd be good for society. I think it would just make males more sexist. Anyone have thoughts on this? I don't have any proof, just something I would think would happen.
Well, if you remember group polarization from IntroPsych, putting people who hold similar opinions together tends to make those opinions more extreme. I suppose that we could see something like that here, although I doubt that all the male people hold underlying sexist opinions that would be made more extreme...
Old 10-21-2009 at 09:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Marlowe View Post
Well, if you remember group polarization from IntroPsych, putting people who hold similar opinions together tends to make those opinions more extreme. I suppose that we could see something like that here, although I doubt that all the male people hold underlying sexist opinions that would be made more extreme...
I was thinking along the lines of it's the male figurehead that wants to send his son to an all male school, and that male figurehead probably teaches some extremely "male values" to his son.

I couldn't imagine too many single women sending their sons to an all boy school.
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Old 10-21-2009 at 09:47 PM   #22
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I agree with you somewhat, jhan, but looking at the reverse: these are young children, and thus are much more likely to be indoctrinated into my idea of them believing the world will adapt to them, as opposed ot the other way around.

I think if you can't concentrate because of hormones, immaturity or whatever, then it's your fault - deal with it. The sooner you learn, the better off you will be. If you want to shank off your homework because of some stupid girl (or boy), then you have to suffer the consequences. It's a learning process, hence the easiness of passing elementary (there are no level divisions in most publicly funded schools - everyone is handled the same, so there is no difference in passing with Cs and As - you are allowed to make mistakes so that you can learn. Again, ti comes back to making a real-like based system, instead of a fantasy. Generally, you don't get second chances (and should never expect them).

If they do the boy school into the Tor, I think they should also implement a female one, otherwise it's unfair. Girls have educational needs too - self-esteem is a huge issue, for example. I read that boys tend to be more confident/participate more because they much more willing to throw an answer at the teacher, not caring if its actually right. Girls are more likely to not answer right away and think it through, trying to actually be correct (again, you could draw back the self-esteem thing). Thus, girls tend to participate less and suffer in that area.
Old 10-21-2009 at 09:55 PM   #23
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Cheri: I almost typed something that could have come across as offensive to some other people, I'll tell you it in private, lol.

But I honestly don't think that would be the case here. When choosing a school to send a kid to, factors like proximity and quality of education/facilities are much bigger factors than whether the school is all boys or Catholic or something.

Plus I can see a lot of single mothers who want to try whatever because they think it will help their kids. Throw a bit of misleading info at a concerned parent, and they'll do anything. Look at how many people aren't vaccinating their children now because a few celebrities have said it causes Autism.

(not to imply that there is misleading data being presented in this case, or that sending your children to an all boys school is even somewhat comparable to the stupid life threatening decision to not vaccinate your children)
Old 10-21-2009 at 09:59 PM   #24
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I can see it being effective for up to grade 6 or 7. They have distinctively different learning styles (in general), and once puberty kicks in... well... it's all down hill from there haha
Old 10-21-2009 at 10:06 PM   #25
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St Micahels Choir School has always been a boys-only school in Toronto, starting at grade 3. Only difference is that since it's a choir school, you have to be able to sing to get in. But it's part of the TDCSB, which is publically funded. So why is a new school such a big deal?
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Old 10-21-2009 at 10:09 PM   #26
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Isn't SMCS a private school though?
Old 10-21-2009 at 10:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madquarker View Post
Isn't SMCS a private school though?
Theres a fee once youre accepted, but anyone can get in, as long as they can sing, and they do get funded by tax dollars.
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Old 10-21-2009 at 10:18 PM   #28
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I actually did a big project on autism last year - it's not some much about vaccines now, it's more to do with the sudden concern over the rise in autism and people freaking out because of things like better labs. But that's a whole unrelated issue, good point.

I'm Roman Catholic and I went ot the Catholic school, even though it involved taking a bus to school instead of walking and that it was pretty far. Eventually they built SLR and I moved there, but that's beside the point. I think my parents decided to live where they do because of the school being in the area - I can't see my dad sending me to a public school - there was one really close to my house, but I still made the bus to St.Hilary. Different factors are important for different people.

About St.Mike's - you have to sing, so automatically it's somewhat selective. It's not a public, open school like the one they seem to be proposing.

I think it's also worth mentioning the attitude that might develop in the boys, like someone said. There will definitely be something - girls might become objects in extreme cases, since there is less opportunity to get ot know them as people, or the boys might be totally unable to relate to them. Plus, the boys might get an elitist view on things - how many people from Harvard or Princeton or some other thing do you know are arrogant jerks? Extreme, I know, but worth considering - imagine if one of the graduates raped someone (there is a relation between views around women and likeliness to abuse them).
Old 10-21-2009 at 10:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by britb View Post
I agree with you somewhat, jhan, but looking at the reverse: these are young children, and thus are much more likely to be indoctrinated into my idea of them believing the world will adapt to them, as opposed ot the other way around.

I think if you can't concentrate because of hormones, immaturity or whatever, then it's your fault - deal with it. The sooner you learn, the better off you will be. If you want to shank off your homework because of some stupid girl (or boy), then you have to suffer the consequences. It's a learning process, hence the easiness of passing elementary (there are no level divisions in most publicly funded schools - everyone is handled the same, so there is no difference in passing with Cs and As - you are allowed to make mistakes so that you can learn. Again, ti comes back to making a real-like based system, instead of a fantasy. Generally, you don't get second chances (and should never expect them).

If they do the boy school into the Tor, I think they should also implement a female one, otherwise it's unfair. Girls have educational needs too - self-esteem is a huge issue, for example. I read that boys tend to be more confident/participate more because they much more willing to throw an answer at the teacher, not caring if its actually right. Girls are more likely to not answer right away and think it through, trying to actually be correct (again, you could draw back the self-esteem thing). Thus, girls tend to participate less and suffer in that area.
Well, I'll take myself as an example. I went to a co-ed elementary school and I wasn't the smartest kid. I didn't concentrate on school hard enough. I then went to an all boys high school and I found it so much easier to concentrate on the work at hand. I think that ability to concentrate in class transfered over since I don't seem to have any problems with concentrating during lectures.

There are probably many factors that could have led to this conclusion but you can't ignore the fact that going to an all boys school may have been a strong contributing factor in setting it up.

As for your last comment, I would agree with it. I think the best thing to do is to set up an all boys school and an all girls school close to each other. I guess what I'm trying to say is to separate class time from socializing time.

That's my opinion and everyone is entitled to his/her own but the option to choose should always be present.
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Old 10-21-2009 at 10:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by britb View Post
I actually did a big project on autism last year - it's not some much about vaccines now, it's more to do with the sudden concern over the rise in autism and people freaking out because of things like better labs. But that's a whole unrelated issue, good point.
No one who looks at real data would think that vaccines cause autism, but there has been a lot of faulty information in the media lately arguing against vaccines on those grounds.

Its not as bad as it was with Oprah talking about it, now its mostly from unreliable political media like Huffington Post and Glenn Beck. But the amount of people that still believe such unscientific information is scary, especially when it leads to increases in such preventable diseases.

But I'm off topic, lol.

I also went to a Catholic school, but mainly because of the proximity to my house most of the other people lived closer to our school than another of comparable quality, so I kindof just made assumptions.

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