Originally Posted by andr5550

I know I am tired of engineers thinking they are better then everyone else.

I'm sure engineers come off this way but from all my eng friends it sounds more like complaining and mental exhaustion then superiority. I dunno I just think people take comments like that like its a competition or that inferior but I don't think that's the way programs should be looked at. One program can be harder but that definitely doesn't make it better or superior

Let's all be civil and conclude with the fact that if you are serious about your academics, a great deal of time and effort will be spent regardless of your capacity or course load. If all of this was easy, what's the point of being here?

Originally Posted by herBs

I chose Mac Comp Sci over Waterloo.

Why... ? I think we've got a pretty good CS program here but UW CS is significantly more renowned than McMaster's (or basically any other schools' in Canada).

I'm not going to fuel this fire, but I will clarify some things:

- Engineers having 30-40 units isn't overloading It's standard. Our required courses for any given term adds up to anywhere from 32 to 40 credits. Overloading is when you do more courses than you were supposed to for that term.

- Mac is not a second choice To the guy talking about research at Mac, and how he hasn't heard of anything from engineering, look again. the national research chairs and grants are often in the engineering field. Many of us turned down U of T, Waterloo, Queens, McGill, UBC, and others in the top 10 list from Mcleans magazine. Your point/argument is Failbloggable.

this thread is funnnnnyyyy- imma throw in my 2 cents!

i think it is all depending on the person and how much work they are willing to do.

Being in a Bio Specialization program i am choosing to do a minor in psych, which will probably force me to overload at some point to get the proper credits. Ive taken summer school already and have to take a bunch of other courses for med school/dental school requirements just to be considered to get into graduate programs.

So technically speaking i dont have any electives either. I need every course to full fill some requirement....but this is my own choice

just because you have more courses doesnt necessarily mean its a higher courseload- ie. for math last year i did absolutely no work until the day before my tests and still did quite well- but i had to put a HUGE amount of work into something like psych when we had a paper to write and did well in that as well- it really depends on the person and how they deal with the course

and lets not forget, that being in other programs, if you wish to pursue graduate school you pretty much need to beef up your extra-curriculars
not trying to belittle engineering here, but you guys dont have to engage in as much during the year cause its not as plausible to have a volunteering position (it is better to just get a summer job) that would be needed to get in to a Masters for example, but i know for most science programs (my anecdotal evidence now) most people have extra curriculars throughout the year to add on the their school work

so again- all depends on how much work you are willing to put in to reach your goal

I rejected UW and UofT Engineering Science for Mac.

I'm in EE right now and it's 38 units...

Originally Posted by EngStud

I rejected UW and UofT Engineering Science for Mac.

I'm in EE right now and it's 38 units...

Who cares brah. I'm in Elec and Biomedical Engineering and I have 40 units. Winning.

Originally Posted by britb

From how is seems to me, Eng has more courses, but the bar seems lower. Like, its more acceptable to get a 65% in Eng than it is in something like Bio. Engs seem more chill with a greater sense of community... bio kids will stab you in the back to get into med.

1st year Eng get a TON of support. It borders on ridiculous sometimes. I'm not sure if it continues into upper years, but Bio basically leaves you to fend for yourself.

So its do you want to do bad with your friends, or hate yourself because you got a B+?

I think Brit got the gist of it.
In general, many people stop after 4 years of an engineering degree and that's good enough to get a job. Also, in engineering, you can get into second year programs by having like a 6.0 or 7.0 GPA, compared to say, Chem Bio, where the average student gets an 11+ GPA.

So engineering may have the most work, but also is lenient in terms of the kinds of marks they can get. Someone getting a 75 in an eng course? Oh, that's fine, whatever. Someone getting a 75 who's trying to go to med school? He/she would be pretty upset with that mark I presume.

So I think it evens out in the end - getting a slightly lower mark in eng is similar to getting a slightly harder mark in science/business (though I'm not really counting humanities here since they're rather subjective in their marking).

Brit also brings up a good point in terms of people ****ing you over in bio whenever possible - engineering kids stick together and all try to do well. It's tiring studying with hundreds of people who would do absolutely anything to get into medical school including deliberately withholding information, outright lying, trying to scare younger pre-meds, and so forth.

Some thoughts on the Engineering program..

As mentioned numerous times before, the course load in Engineering is absolutely higher than that of other faculties. Just compare the number of courses or units an engineer takes compared to other programs. I'm currently taking 41 units, a 6 and 7 course split between the terms and have been doing so for the past couple years. Difficulty aside, its the simple fact that we take so many courses that gives Engineering such a hard reputation. For those of you that take 4,5,or 6 courses, imagine taking on an addition 1 or 2 courses on top of your current course load. All of a sudden your resources and attention are split 6 or 7 many ways, you have that many more assignments and midterms to deal with and just more deadlines to hassle with overall.

Difficulty of the courses is a very subjective matter. From first year I distinctively recall how the engineering math, physics and chem courses were more difficult than the same ones offered by the science program and this carried on into second year as well. There was simply more content going at a quicker pace. Beyond second year I can't be certain.

I think the interest in your program is being overlooked. I love math, physics and engineering and if you place me in those classes I'll excel. I love historical stuff, so place me in history or anthropology and ill absorb that like a sponge. Put me in other classes like biology or business however, even if placed in one of the "easy" ones offered, I probably wont get an amazing mark. For instance I found COMM 2BA3 (OB) to be the easiest course offered at mac, it is so basic, simple, and straightforward. However I also found it mindlessly boring and I didnt invest the time into it and ended up getting a lower mark than I could've gotten. In the end, if you dont take an interest in the course, you wont invest the time, and you'll do poorly which could easily be confused as perceiving the course to be difficult.

Some of my friends are majoring in English or Music and complain how they need to invest a lot of time into reading a volume of books or practice their instrument. However, when I look at their schedule it is so sparse, some of them have 1 or 2 days off completely! In my eyes they have all the time in the world, perhaps I'm just a dick. I do feel that some courses you can simply show up to class and do the readings and end up with a very attractive mark.

Also engineers aim for 12s just like everyone else. The reason they get excited when they get some like a 7 is because odds are they are above average. The average on my most recent midterm was 30% so getting higher than that you certainly feel somewhat proud...
When applying to graduate schools they also take into consideration what program you're coming from. Having a A average in commerce wont be viewed the same as having an A average from psych for instance, same goes for Eng and Hlth Sci.

For people that claim engineers act superior, I would have to say they definitely do in 1st and 2nd year. They are overworked and get frustrated when they hear other people claim they are overworked, regardless if it is true or not. They tend to grow out of that later on and if you encounter a snarky engineer later on its likely because they're on a rollercoaster ride of coffee.

Originally Posted by funkdmonkey

Some thoughts on the Engineering program..


Some of my friends are majoring in English or Music and complain how they need to invest a lot of time into reading a volume of books or practice their instrument. However, when I look at their schedule it is so sparse, some of them have 1 or 2 days off completely! In my eyes they have all the time in the world, perhaps I'm just a dick. I do feel that some courses you can simply show up to class and do the readings and end up with a very attractive mark.

I can't speak for Music as I've never taken a class in that program, but English is often seen as one of the harder arts courses to major in. The reading for it is insane. You have to read a novel, spend 3 lectures on it, and you're on to the next one. The pace of reading is pretty difficult, especially when you factor in the supplementary readings for the assignments and what not. And the majority of the assignments... if you can't prove your point well enough, your screwed.

Originally Posted by J. Dorey

I can't speak for Music as I've never taken a class in that program, but English is often seen as one of the harder arts courses to major in. The reading for it is insane. You have to read a novel, spend 3 lectures on it, and you're on to the next one. The pace of reading is pretty difficult, especially when you factor in the supplementary readings for the assignments and what not. And the majority of the assignments... if you can't prove your point well enough, your screwed.

its actually quite true- being in physio i have to read a lot of bio/chem textbooks
but i took english in the summer (& note i only had 1 other course with it at the time) and reading all the books is a painnnnnnn- especially if they are prose novels -half of them are uninteresting yet relevant for SOME random reason and you are expected to read them in quick succession- if you didnt youre lost and lose marks in tutorials for participation and the lectures will make no sense whatsoever

mind you- i will have to agree with the point about free time- for some more anecdotal evidence, i myself have upwards of 30 hours of class/volunteering/club stuff a week and when i compare this to my roommate who has 15 hours (in a different program) it doesnt matter if we have the same workload, the mere fact that they have more TIME to do their work kind of leaves those with more class time at a disadvantage in this comparison

Originally Posted by funkdmonkey

Some thoughts on the Engineering program..


Also engineers aim for 12s just like everyone else. The reason they get excited when they get some like a 7 is because odds are they are above average. The average on my most recent midterm was 30% so getting higher than that you certainly feel somewhat proud...
When applying to graduate schools they also take into consideration what program you're coming from. Having a A average in commerce wont be viewed the same as having an A average from psych for instance, same goes for Eng and Hlth Sci.

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that engineers don't aim for 12s, but overall it seems that class averages are a lot lower for engineers than for other courses. Keeping that in mind, in general an engineering student would be happy with a mark that a science student may not be, especially if he/she is aiming for a graduate/professional school requiring high marks (e.g., med school).

Taking your example of a midterm average being 30% - by getting 60%, you would be 30% above average, so you would feel happy with that, and though it wouldn't be ideal it may still be acceptable. But anyone who currently has a 3.95+ GPA aiming for med school getting a 60% on a midterm would be really upset. Science students who want to pursue further education generally have to get really high grades, but it is easier to do well in science classes than engineering classes.

That's how I see it anyhow.

The only thing that bothers me are engineering students who complain about how hard their program is without actually doing well. For instance, an engineering student in first year who complains to all his friends about how tough his life is but gets 60s in all his classes. It's arguably harder to get 90s in all science classes than 60s in engineering classes, so their complaining is kind of pointless. Similarly, it's harder to do extremely well in humanities compared to JUST passing engineering. So I don't really like when engineering students don't work hard/efficiently/productively and say that everyone else is taking an easy program and that's why they're doing well.

the reason the average is low is because the class is hard, the class average would never be that low in another faculty. plus a pretty high percentage of people drop out as well, and its not as if their all idiots, they were all the best students in math/physics at their respective high schools and couldnt handle it, so its not like the people who get 60's are just cruising through getting 60's and 70's.

Originally Posted by harris3

the reason the average is low is because the class is hard, the class average would never be that low in another faculty. plus a pretty high percentage of people drop out as well, and its not as if their all idiots, they were all the best students in math/physics at their respective high schools and couldnt handle it, so its not like the people who get 60's are just cruising through getting 60's and 70's.

What's the dropout rate for engineering? In my program/year, it was exactly 50% by the end of second year (the first year of the program is second year), and as of right now, 57% of the people initially in my program have dropped out.
I'm not asking as a challenge or anything, I genuinely am curious what the engineering dropout rate is, and if it's different for different eng programs.

Originally Posted by nerual

What's the dropout rate for engineering? In my program/year, it was exactly 50% by the end of second year (the first year of the program is second year), and as of right now, 57% of the people initially in my program have dropped out.
I'm not asking as a challenge or anything, I genuinely am curious what the engineering dropout rate is, and if it's different for different eng programs.

I don't think drop-out rates are relevant. It just means that people have no desire to carry on
with the program - maybe they just lost interest and thought that it was not really for them.