Originally Posted by mastercool

I'm actually from out of province...the college in my home province has a 4 year wait-list just to get into said-program...if that wasn't the case I wouldn't even be at Mac

I see. I'm acting and questioning you here in a neutral manner right now, so please don't get offended or anything.

If the college in your home province has a wait list. You were willing to commute all the way to another province for a 4 year program. You are facing extra fees in terms of living, food expenses, tuition, time (opportunity cost), etc. Alternatively, couldn't you had considered a program out of province, or somewhere in your province that has a college which offers the said-program? What I mean is. Your province must have more than one college that provides the said-program correct? If so, why couldn't you have gone there? I wouldn't be willing to go to another province for the said-program and face way more expenses in general if in fact I can get the same credentials from a college program (which is cool in its own respect). I'm just genuinely interested in hearing your replies and reasoning because I find myself to be interested now in this whole discussion going on.

Originally Posted by herBs

I see. I'm acting and questioning you here in a neutral manner right now, so please don't get offended or anything.

If the college in your home province has a wait list. You were willing to commute all the way to another province for a 4 year program. You are facing extra fees in terms of living, food expenses, tuition, time (opportunity cost), etc. Alternatively, couldn't you had considered a program out of province, or somewhere in your province that has a college which offers the said-program? What I mean is. Your province must have more than one college that provides the said-program correct? If so, why couldn't you have gone there? I wouldn't be willing to go to another province for the said-program and face way more expenses in general if in fact I can get the same credentials from a college program (which is cool in its own respect). I'm just genuinely interested in hearing your replies and reasoning because I find myself to be interested now in this whole discussion going on.

No, there is only one college in MB that offers the program...and in addition to the college courses, I would have to take university courses just like I am in this program.

Unfortunately, there is a rule that states that one from out of province cannot apply to competitive college programs in Ontario or any other province and be considered first priority...so none of the college programs here or in any other province are considered an option unfortunately...unive rsities will take whomever so it was easy receiving acceptance from Mac.

A family friend completed the same program a couple years ago and he had good things to say about it. I figured I would apply and if I managed to get in I'd give it a shot...

I did try to get into a similar program (Nuclear Medicine) that my province was sponsoring kids to do but only made it to the interview stage. They were only taking 3 people that year so it was super competitive to get into.

Originally Posted by mastercool

Some of those college 'engineering technology' programs aren't really considered a joke you know...you can make some pretty darn good money coming out of them.

For instance, I know for a fact that Ontario Hydro and other utilities pay electrical technologists higher than the engineers. Why, you ask? Engineers are considered part of 'management', thus don't get paid any overtime. Technologists are in the non-management category and are considered unionized...thus they get paid 1.5x of their set wage (which is usually somewhere in the line of $35-40 an hour). That's pretty amazing money imo.

Not to mention that most engineering jobs in Canada are not 'rocket science', thus anybody can do them. Why hire an expensive engineer when a company can hire a technologist for half the price?

Even for my own program that I'm in...these are skills that can be learned in college. There really is not a difference between radiography at a university vs a college...they both are going to give you the same work credentials.

OP, chances are you're a very smart person to have majored in Chemistry and to have come this far...it also takes a lot of guts to admit something that others are clearly biased about...Anyways I wish you the best of luck in the future. It's stated that people change careers 5-10 times in their lifetimes.

Wow so much misinformation here my eyes bleeding. Maybe this was the case back in the day when Ontario Hydro still existed (it hasn't existed since 1999), so I cannot comment on that. However, I can tell you from my three summer work terms at Hydro One, and the fact I have family that works there as engineers, that engineers are not considered 'management', management is considered management. Furthermore, all engineers who are not managers (which is most of them) are unionized (its called the "Society"). And yes, engineers get paid same overtime as everyone else, unless they become managers, at which point they must leave the union.

The claim that technologists get paid more than engineers, that is also false. It depends on what pay grade class you are (and how much overtime you put in). So in principle an engineer and a technologist would earn the same amount if they are the same pay grade class. Also note its much easier for an engineer to move into a higher pay grade class once they obtain their P.Eng. Most of the technologists that are employed are for field work, and the vast majority aren't even given permanent employment, instead they work on contract, which means reduced benefits, and no pension later on.

Lets now analyze the claim that "Not to mention that most engineering jobs in Canada are not 'rocket science', thus anybody can do them." It is SO cute that you think all other types of engineering are very easy. First off, there are very limited 'rocket science' jobs out there in North America and Europe, and there haven't been due to the massive cuts NASA and ESA have received since the late 70's (NASA for example has not built a new rocket in many years...in fact I am pretty sure they have discontinued manned flight for the time being). Furthermore, the notion that 'rocket science' is the pinnacle of difficulty in engineering and that almost can do it arose back when they were first building them in the 50's,60's, and 70's, they did not have very powerful computers, microprocessors so simulation and any other useful software was hard to design, the control capabilities were rather limited (the embedded systems were very weak and weighed over 70 pounds, etc). Nowadays, as with almost any discipline in the world, computers simplify the task greatly.

Originally Posted by jupiter

Wow so much misinformation here my eyes bleeding. Maybe this was the case back in the day when Ontario Hydro still existed (it hasn't existed since 1999), so I cannot comment on that. However, I can tell you from my three summer work terms at Hydro One, and the fact I have family that works there as engineers, that engineers are not considered 'management', management is considered management. Furthermore, all engineers who are not managers (which is most of them) are unionized (its called the "Society"). And yes, engineers get paid same overtime as everyone else, unless they become managers, at which point they must leave the union.

The claim that technologists get paid more than engineers, that is also false. It depends on what pay grade class you are (and how much overtime you put in). So in principle an engineer and a technologist would earn the same amount if they are the same pay grade class. Also note its much easier for an engineer to move into a higher pay grade class once they obtain their P.Eng. Most of the technologists that are employed are for field work, and the vast majority aren't even given permanent employment, instead they work on contract, which means reduced benefits, and no pension later on.

Lets now analyze the claim that "Not to mention that most engineering jobs in Canada are not 'rocket science', thus anybody can do them." It is SO cute that you think all other types of engineering. First off, there are very limited 'rocket science' jobs out there in North America and Europe, and there haven't been due to the massive cuts NASA and ESA have received since the late 70's (NASA for example has not built a new rocket since. Furthermore, the notion that 'rocket science' is the pinnacle of difficulty in engineering and that almost can do it arose back when they were first building them in the 50's,60's, and 70's, they did not have very powerful computers, microprocessors so simulation and any other useful software was hard to design, the control capabilities were rather limited (the embedded systems were very weak and weighed over 70 pounds, etc). Nowadays, as with almost any discipline in the world, computers simplify the task greatly.

To be fair though, these employees that you speak of have the "title" of engineers.
I'm not sure on hydro one or OPG specifically as my only friend there is a health physicist (with a 3 year general science degree from mac in physical science).

However at Chrysler Canada in Brampton, as well as AECL in Chalk River, the engineers who have been there 20+ years have no degrees or diplomas. Some might, but it wasn't a requirement as companies used to have "no experience necessary" policies.

These days, that has changed to "degree necessary... But may not lead to job"

Originally Posted by RJK1990

To be fair though, these employees that you speak of have the "title" of engineers.
I'm not sure on hydro one or OPG specifically as my only friend there is a health physicist (with a 3 year general science degree from mac in physical science).

However at Chrysler Canada in Brampton, as well as AECL in Chalk River, the engineers who have been there 20+ years have no degrees or diplomas. Some might, but it wasn't a requirement as companies used to have "no experience necessary" policies.

These days, that has changed to "degree necessary... But may not lead to job"

As I said I do not know how it used to be. However, the couple of older guys I have met in time at hydro all had engineering degrees. If you look nowadays, most of their posting require university degrees (be it business, engineering, environmental science, etc).

Originally Posted by jupiter

As I said I do not know how it used to be. However, the couple of older guys I have met in time at hydro all had engineering degrees. If you look nowadays, most of their posting require university degrees (be it business, engineering, environmental science, etc).

This is very true. It appears as though every job out there has a university degree or a college diploma in its "requirements". The problem is that, just because you have this credential, it doesn't mean you're guaranteed to find work.

That's part of the problem that will be discussed in this show; we keep feeding huge numbers into these institutions, but we're all coming out with huge amounts of debts and don't get hired because there is always someone with "more experience". This is because they themselves worked somewhere for years, either got laid off or the company closed, and between someone with experience and no degree/diploma and someone who has a degree/diploma but no experience; real world experience wins hands down.

To pay off our debts, we take jobs we're over qualified for (warehouse/restaurant jobs) and end up falling behind when it comes to acquiring relevant experience. Unfortunately, while we're in university, we keep living in a "bubble" where we're told it'll all work out and just focus on getting good grade to "get into grad school". For me, I saw the way the world really is when I was looking for my co-op jobs and opened my eyes to the reality that awaits us.

and just as some background, 'Generation Jobless' is the third in a trilogy of documentaries made by Sharon Bartlett & Maria LeRose (with Dreamfilm Productions) about the millennial generation, following “Hyper Parents & Coddled Kids” (2010) and “Generation Boomerang” (2011). [source = https://www.facebook.com/GenerationJobless]

Their previous intallment, Hyper Parents & Coddled Kids, documented how our generation, unlike the previous one, had both parents working, which led to getting us whatever we wanted. Generation Boomerang documents how after we're done school, we can't afford houses with their current market prices and our huge debts, so we go back home.

I'm not going to get into the argument. I just want to make a clarification for everyone as they argue this out: You cannot legally be called an "Engineer" without a Professional engineering license. It is a closely regulated profession in Ontario and in Canada, and therefore there are no "Engineers" without a professional engineering license (which requires you to get a degree, or else special exemption, which is a lot less common, but does occur).

Now, on you go.

Originally Posted by mike_302

I'm not going to get into the argument. I just want to make a clarification for everyone as they argue this out: You cannot legally be called an "Engineer" without a Professional engineering license. It is a closely regulated profession in Ontario and in Canada, and therefore there are no "Engineers" without a professional engineering license (which requires you to get a degree, or else special exemption, which is a lot less common, but does occur).

Now, on you go.

I know it's wikipedia but...
"The term "Engineer" is often used loosely in some industry sectors in Canada to describe people working in the field of Engineering technology (not professional engineering) as Engineering Technologists, Engineering Technicians and Trades (stationary engineer). For example the Canadian Coast Guard and the Canadian Navy often calls its technicians internally but not in the public domain; "Marine Engineers", "Power Engineers" and "Military Engineers". "Locomotive Engineers" have been an integral part of the Canadian railroad industry since its inception. Stationary Engineers are a trade whose technicians operate heavy machinery and equipment that provide heat, light, climate control and power."
[source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulat...ering#Ca nada]

None of the "engineers" at Chrysler have iron rings, but their title is "engineer" and they are actually skilled trades people. This I know, as I am a TPT at Chrysler.

I like the discussion amongst everyone, hope that means you'll all tune in.

I'm in science right now and would like to stay in science to become a researcher....
but ugh, funding and paperwork.... It seems like it would take forever to have a proper job in science. I feel terrible because my parents have, and are continuing to, pay for most of my university tuition. I'm trying to make their investment worthwhile, but it does get to a point where I wonder if I'm really effing up.

Also, what are we supposed to tell our younger siblings/friends/relatives in Canada? My sister is in grade 10, and all she's obsessed about it getting a "good grade" (which apparently is over an 85). No idea where she got this thinking from. I mean, its true you need around this avg to get into some competitive programs in Mac, but frick, it's this type of thinking of just chasing a grade that leads you to being lost after highschool.... :/

Originally Posted by Lulie

Also, what are we supposed to tell our younger siblings/friends/relatives in Canada? My sister is in grade 10, and all she's obsessed about it getting a "good grade" (which apparently is over an 85). No idea where she got this thinking from. I mean, its true you need around this avg to get into some competitive programs in Mac, but frick, it's this type of thinking of just chasing a grade that leads you to being lost after highschool.... :/

I see nothing wrong with trying to get good grades in high school, since that means you have more choices when she hits Gr.12 + more scholarships. You can always drop down into college courses with good grades, but if you take college classes in high school it's harder to move up.

On the other hand, I took autotech, business, science, and arts courses in high school so by the time I went into university, I knew what I wanted to do

Generation incompetent-useless-people-that-wouldn't-have-jobs-anyways*

Originally Posted by RJK1990

This is very true. It appears as though every job out there has a university degree or a college diploma in its "requirements".

If you look nowadays, most of their posting require university degrees (be it business, engineering, environmental science, etc).

Yes, those jobs require university education, and that makes sense, but their are tons of jobs we forget about that require little to no further education simple because we never had any interest in them. Here is a short list I gathered from some sources online,

Fireman, policeman, Nuclear Power Reactor Operator, Personal Trainer, Vocational Jobs (electricity and plumbing), Dental Hygienist, Online Advertising Manager, Web Developer, Medical Secretary, Paralegal Assistant, Stenographer-Court Reporter, Heating and Refrigeration Mechanic, Surveyor, Executive Assistant, Insurance Agent, Industrial Machine Repairer, Cosmetologist, Hair Stylist, Tax Examiner - Collector, Wholesales Sales Representative, Construction Machine Operator, Electrical Technician, Architectural Drafter, Teacher's Aide, Sewage Plant Operator.

These jobs were listed as requiring no further education, but I'll say some of them may require some. I think because we attend University we get our heads caught up in Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Researcher, Physiologist, etc. when their are a lot more jobs out there that need to get done.

Side note, all jobs in 'pure science' usually want you to have your PhD, which is partly why I stayed out of that.

I went to college, did really well - and then faced the prospect of working part time for $12/hour for ten years before I might get a decent job in a field with an average burnout rate of 5 years. Then I discovered that in every other job I took, no matter how well I did they would never promote me because I didn't have a degree (and they didn't care what it was in).
I came to McMaster knowing that just getting the degree wasn't a guarantee of a job - but that doesn't make it any less depressing to look at the statistics again. Especially when you consider (to use the numbers my younger sister is facing as she graduates from Nipissing this summer) with $45000 in OSAP debt and a maximum of 15 years to pay it off, your minimum payments will be ~$400/month!

Its more like Generation Complain About Everything. There are jobs. you might not like them but they're there. I kinda find it funny when people are complaining about their situation with school and jobs. Its like they forgot we live and canada and have a higher standard of living then most people in the world. while we here complaining about not being able to find a job we want and although were in our 20s we havent worked a fraction as hard as the previous generations. waahhh waahhh waahhh all the way home

Originally Posted by eddiemurphy

Its more like Generation Complain About Everything. There are jobs. you might not like them but they're there. I kinda find it funny when people are complaining about their situation with school and jobs. Its like they forgot we live and canada and have a higher standard of living then most people in the world. while we here complaining about not being able to find a job we want and although were in our 20s we havent worked a fraction as hard as the previous generations. waahhh waahhh waahhh all the way home

I think that's a stereotype. Canada does have a higher standard of living than many other places, but that has nothing to do with 20-somethings not working as hard as previous generations. I don't dispute the first point, but I have issues with the second point.

We are the first generation to not have better financial/job prospects than our parents, so we don't necessarily have it easier as a general population. In the past, you could either not have a university degree, or a 3-year bachelor's degree with mediocre marks and no experience and end up with a job that is currently paying somewhere around $70000 a year if not more. Now, you need to work harder and do much more to achieve the same thing.

Second, many students work part-time during school to support themselves and sometimes their families, so the idea that 20-somethings haven't had to work at anything only really applies to a fraction of us. School is mandatory to a certain age so parents can't pull their kids out and make them work like was done in the past.