Originally Posted by RockerSocker

What do the thousands of students who don't get into medical school each year in Ontario alone do once they realize they didn't make it? Grad school? Like what can someone do with a degree in life science for example?

Getting a second Degree, Teaching and other Professional Schools, Grad School. The only things you can really do directly with a Science Degree is some government/industry work.

@Alchemist, I think med school courses are pass/fail. With 60% being the passing mark. That's what I heard.

Anyways, med school is hard to get into because they want to choose the best doctors. to do this, they keep the supply low so that the wages for doctors are high. This gives an incentive for the better students to apply.

If they increased the number of doctors in the country, their pay would surely (shirley lol) go down, creating less of an incentive to be a doctor.

Originally Posted by FireDragoonX

@Alchemist, I think med school courses are pass/fail. With 60% being the passing mark. That's what I heard.

Anyways, med school is hard to get into because they want to choose the best doctors. to do this, they keep the supply low so that the wages for doctors are high. This gives an incentive for the better students to apply.

If they increased the number of doctors in the country, their pay would surely (shirley lol) go down, creating less of an incentive to be a doctor.

i don't think that is completely true. when you think about all the people who don't have a doctor, and how overcrowded most doctor's practices are, there is definitely room for more doctors. obviously if there were so many doctors that they were competing for patients their wages would go down, but that is not the case. in the coming years when the baby boomers are getting old, the need for doctors will be even greater, but there won't be enough.

Yeah, pass/fail makes sense. But the point is a pass is above 50% now, going up to 67% (I think one school had 67, don't quote me on that though). And if you want to work in the US you have to write the USMLE. The USMLE is where your 'marks' matter, if you're doing residency in the US because the best ones are only given to the people with the highest USMLE scores.

In either case, (generally) if you can maintain a 4.0 or 3.9 blah blah you'll likely do fine in med school, but the schooling isn't a joke like some people make it out to be, where as soon as you get in you don't have to do a bit of work anymore.

Originally Posted by RockerSocker

What do the thousands of students who don't get into medical school each year in Ontario alone do once they realize they didn't make it? Grad school? Like what can someone do with a degree in life science for example?

There's lots of options, although people who are interested in med school will likely find themselves in grad school if they don't make it.

Life Science isn't useless, and I don't understand why people act as if it is. Plenty of life sci grads go on to get some really good jobs... remember, it's not the "name" of the degree that matters (ie Life Science, biology, etc), it's the degree itself that matters (ie B.Sc, B.A, etc). Most job postings will state "Bachelor's degree in X or some related field". As long as you can show that your degree applies to the job in question, you're fine. Relevant courses that you've taken are also useful.

Like it has been said though, in today's world most people don't get a single degree and go to work... most people supplement it or continue their education.

Using myself as an example, I'm finishing my degree this year, along with my Certification as a GIS Specialist. I plan on working in GIS, hopefully in the environmental sector. Tailor your degree to what you're interested in, and you'll be fine.

Originally Posted by PTGregD

There are other places other than Canada to go to Med School. Spread your net wide, and apply to other schools in the U.S. for instance. Additionally, the cost doesn't become so much of an issue when you realize that by going to the U.S., your salary coming out is REALLY good. You can easily (over 3-5 years) pay off any debts you've accrued to that point as long as you don't go nuts with buying sports cars.

The debt that one will obtain from attending a US med school as a Canadian is $200,000 plus in US dollars. You will spend the next several years earning around $60,000 canadian (in residency), before you can dream about earning net salaries of anywhere near $200,000.

Most Specialties in Canada have an average net pay under $200,000.

@arathbon
Yes, that's true, but the payment you receive in residency is not meant to be what you're going to make as a doctor, it's basically just living expenses and whatnot.

And, if you live in the US you do make a large amount of money, enough to pay back the debt you've earned in a few years.

If you're in Canada, no, you won't be able to pay back that $200,000 instantly, but you won't need to. It's not like it's a "bad thing" and that you're "poor" if you're a doctor starting off. Sure, it'll take a few years to pay off your crap, but once it's done, you're set.

Originally Posted by Alchemist11

@arathbon
Yes, that's true, but the payment you receive in residency is not meant to be what you're going to make as a doctor, it's basically just living expenses and whatnot.

And, if you live in the US you do make a large amount of money, enough to pay back the debt you've earned in a few years.

If you're in Canada, no, you won't be able to pay back that $200,000 instantly, but you won't need to. It's not like it's a "bad thing" and that you're "poor" if you're a doctor starting off. Sure, it'll take a few years to pay off your crap, but once it's done, you're set.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Alchemist11

@arathbon
Yes, that's true, but the payment you receive in residency is not meant to be what you're going to make as a doctor, it's basically just living expenses and whatnot.

And, if you live in the US you do make a large amount of money, enough to pay back the debt you've earned in a few years.

If you're in Canada, no, you won't be able to pay back that $200,000 instantly, but you won't need to. It's not like it's a "bad thing" and that you're "poor" if you're a doctor starting off. Sure, it'll take a few years to pay off your crap, but once it's done, you're set.

You're carrying that debt for a long time (4 years med school (many american schools require canadians to pay up front) plus ~5 years of residency so 9 years total), and the whole time its building interest. You're now 30 and well over $200,000 in debt. Factor in not making significant amounts of money during the first several years and you're $500,000 or so behind people like engineers. You're in your 40's before you start seeing a financial benefit to being a doctor (especially if you train in the states). In other words 1) Doctors aren't rich and certainly the extra $100,000 in debt going to the states isn't trivial 2) Its not a profession for those wanting money.

But really the point is. If i take on extra debt to go to med school in the states, why don't I stay down there afterwards especially since their residents and attending physicians are paid far more. How does sending our students solve our doctor shortage then. Ontario med schools are on par with California med schools for being the toughest subnational jurisdiction in north american to get into med school. The average statistics for Ontario schools are not dissimilar to those in the Ivy league.

Another problem for Ontarians is that while in the states, only state schools in the US provide preference to in-state applicants leaving plenty of private schools that will take applicants from everywhere. In Canada every med school has heavy preference for in province applicants. Try getting in anywhere as a 3.5 GPA Ontarian anywhere in Canada. Not going to happen. Try the same as an American and you stand a chance of getting in somewhere.

Our biggest problem is that med schools do not have enough spaces AND we do not make effective use of Canadians that did go to med school elsewhere. Those who went to Ireland, UK, Australia etc. have very little hope of getting a good Canadian residency because of official discrimination.

I agree with the second part of your post: why not stay in the US? True, why not? You do make a lot more money, and if you really needed to then go there.

And, I don't see how your debt almost triples in a few years...my brother owes about $200,000 right now but I really don't see how he's going to owe half a million dollars in a couple years. Even if he did, if he stayed in the US for 5 years he could clear up most if not all of that (doctors in the US make a hell of a lot more money than they do here).

No, doctors aren't the richest people, but they are very well off (borderline rich). I don't know any established doctors who are having money troubles.

You would obviously stay in the U.S.; That is basically the entire point behind taking on additional debt. As for not making good money in your first year, that's not true. I know two people who have just become Doctors, and their first year salary is $300,000 for practicing emergency medicine. Now, you could pick a specialization that pays less (family medicine), but then you can hardly argue about still being debt.

But it's pointless to argue about things like this. Bottom line is yes, Canada could use more seats for med school, but ultimately that won't be happening anytime soon which means if you have your heart set on med school, you have to start looking at alternatives like the U.S.

You DO get rewarded for it though, as doctors DO make a lot of money, and you will clear any debt you've accrued quickly. It doesn't matter if you're $500,000 in debt; You can easily pay that off with your starting salary under U.S. tax laws over 3-5 years. Then you're debt-free for the rest of your life, making a very nice salary.

Or other countries with "equivalent" systems.

My friend is in Scotland right now because that's where she really wanted to go.

Originally Posted by Alchemist11

I agree with the second part of your post: why not stay in the US? True, why not? You do make a lot more money, and if you really needed to then go there.

And, I don't see how your debt almost triples in a few years...my brother owes about $200,000 right now but I really don't see how he's going to owe half a million dollars in a couple years. Even if he did, if he stayed in the US for 5 years he could clear up most if not all of that (doctors in the US make a hell of a lot more money than they do here).

No, doctors aren't the richest people, but they are very well off (borderline rich). I don't know any established doctors who are having money troubles.

The money difference is in wages you DIDN'T earn in your extra 4 years of school and the fairly low wages your earned for 5 years compared to what others are earning at the other time. It's not all debt. But between $200,000 in debt and ~$300,000 in wages not earned, interest etc. you'll be about $500,000 behind where you could have been.

Plus you're working 60 hour weeks, and just spent 5 years working for 80 hours a week. Plus on call etc. I personally don't consider that borderline rich. If doctors chose to work 40 hours a week (until late in their career) they couldn't afford to live the "boderline rich lifestyle".

Originally Posted by arathbon

The money difference is in wages you DIDN'T earn in your extra 4 years of school and the fairly low wages your earned for 5 years compared to what others are earning at the other time. It's not all debt. But between $200,000 in debt and ~$300,000 in wages not earned, interest etc. you'll be about $500,000 behind where you could have been.

Plus you're working 60 hour weeks, and just spent 5 years working for 80 hours a week. Plus on call etc. I personally don't consider that borderline rich. If doctors chose to work 40 hours a week (until late in their career) they couldn't afford to live the "boderline rich lifestyle".

You (generally) don't get rich by not working a lot though. I don't really see what you're trying to argue here. Yes, doctors working 40 hours a week most likely don't make that much compared to doctors working 60+ hours a week, but that's the name of the game. Just because they "start off $500,000 behind" doesn't mean they don't make up the ground very quickly.

Originally Posted by PTGregD

You would obviously stay in the U.S.;

Not true. I personally intend to come back to Canada if I do go to the states but a lot of people don't.

That is basically the entire point behind taking on additional debt. As for not making good money in your first year, that's not true. I know two people who have just become Doctors, and their first year salary is $300,000 for practicing emergency medicine. Now, you could pick a specialization that pays less (family medicine), but then you can hardly argue about still being debt.

You don't pick a specialty easily. Many specialties are competitive for residency positions especially the ROAD specialties (Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology Dermatology) which pay well are very hard to get into, especially if you did not do med school in Canada. There are exceptions of course (for example there is a PM&R doc just out of residency billing over $500,000 dollars his first year), but generally they are people who are still keeping their residency lifestyle (ie. very large amounts of work). If you look at the CMA's specialty profiles almost all specialties average $175, 000 or so before taxes but after expenses (ie. office, secretary, insurance etc.)

But it's pointless to argue about things like this. Bottom line is yes, Canada could use more seats for med school, but ultimately that won't be happening anytime soon which means if you have your heart set on med school, you have to start looking at alternatives like the U.S.

You DO get rewarded for it though, as doctors DO make a lot of money, and you will clear any debt you've accrued quickly. It doesn't matter if you're $500,000 in debt; You can easily pay that off with your starting salary under U.S. tax laws over 3-5 years. Then you're debt-free for the rest of your life, making a very nice salary.

Once again relies on moving to the US. If you practice there for 5 years, you are not in your mid 30s and have been there for 14 years, and you have likely put down roots . Why would you move back if you had not already done so. If Canada wants to have more physicians we need more affordable med school spaces and/or higher salaries for physicians (and not spend so much on high priced consultants etc.) especially those in primary care specialties where there are shortages , and which was pointed out in this thread do not pay well comparatively.