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Old 01-27-2012 at 04:33 PM   #46
huzaifa47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngStud View Post

You clearly don't know what a lobbyist is. A lobbyist works a for a union or corporation. These students don't have the funds to hire a lobbyist. It's corporations who will hire lobbyists to get a corporate tax cut.

.
The students of McMaster do pay into both OUSA and CASA which are provincial and federal lobbying groups respectively. They both have multiple full time staff who work out of Toronto and Ottawa all year meeting regularly with decision makers and politicians. Similarly every year student executives of their member institutions go upto Queens Park and Parliament Hill and meet with Politicians about specific funding and policy wants. I personally went last November to Ottawa as well and met with many MP's. For example when a tuition framework is being worked on by the government they get pressure from student lobbying groups to freeze/lower/have a very low % increase, whereas most Universities often come out asking for a higher % ability to increase tuition. Universities are often not the biggest fans of Tuition freezes and so on. This is a crude way of explaining but the government sort of finds the middle ground between the two competing elements. Right now therefore the Tuition framework has a 5% limit for most programs.
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Old 01-27-2012 at 04:43 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huzaifa47 View Post
The students of McMaster do pay into both OUSA and CASA which are provincial and federal lobbying groups respectively. They both have multiple full time staff who work out of Toronto and Ottawa all year meeting regularly with decision makers and politicians. Similarly every year student executives of their member institutions go upto Queens Park and Parliament Hill and meet with Politicians about specific funding and policy wants. I personally went last November to Ottawa as well and met with many MP's. For example when a tuition framework is being worked on by the government they get pressure from student lobbying groups to freeze/lower/have a very low % increase, whereas most Universities often come out asking for a higher % ability to increase tuition. Universities are often not the biggest fans of Tuition freezes and so on. This is a crude way of explaining but the government sort of finds the middle ground between the two competing elements. Right now therefore the Tuition framework has a 5% limit for most programs.
Right and lobbyists from corporations side are better funded and more powerful. You're comparing an elephant to an ant. The ant can be negligible in this case.
Old 01-27-2012 at 09:19 PM   #48
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Well this has caused quite the debate, and I am surprised that anyone would be against dropping student debt, reducing tuition fees and increase funding for education. If you fear lowering fees will reduce your quality of education, then consider that students in Ontario are paying the highest fees in Canada, but also have the worst faculty-student ratio in Canada. We should strive for education that is accessible to everyone, including those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. For every $1000 rise in tuition fees, 15% of students drop out of school. OSAP is an option but it does not cover all costs, such as transportation and textbooks. It also leaves students in debt, the average student will graduate $37, 000 in debt.

Last year Canada can spend 29 billion dollars on fighter jets and only a fraction of this, 9 billion, would eliminate student debt in Ontario. The government needs to prioritize its spending and invest in our education.

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Old 01-27-2012 at 10:02 PM   #49
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Say tuition for UG becomes free/much reduced like you want (!). Wonderful! Everyone gets a Bachelor.

Know what happens? People start having to go to a Masters to get a good job. Bachelor's becomes the new HS diploma. How is that going to help anyone?

How is that lowering tuition?



I won't go into it but that fighter jet comment is ridiculous.
Old 01-27-2012 at 10:11 PM   #50
Allan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngStud View Post
Cut spending in other areas of public spending...

Raise taxes on corporations or tax private jets more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EngStud View Post


If the Ontario parliament wasn't getting contaminated by Lobbyists, maybe students wouldn't have a debt problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EngStud View Post
Again, I wasn't talking about taxing the rich, it's more about taxing corporations. Corporations are not people, they are not individuals. Therefore, they should be taxed more.
Why would you raise taxes on corporations? You should always be offering tax incentives to businesses to keep them in Canada, so that you'll have a job when you graduate. I worked at a manufacturing plant for my coop term...long story short, one of the US states offered a better tax incentive than Ontario, and the plant got shut down and the jobs relocated.

I don't understand your logic that a corporation isn't a person, so they should be taxed more?

I have no issues with lobbyists. You have to understand why large corporations have so much power/money in the first place. Because ordinary people (even poor people) give them power/money by buying their products and services. If you don't like big corporations with lots of money/power....simply stop supporting them, that is the most effective way...shop at local mom&pop stores.

Students also have the power to elect a politician that supports their views of lowering tuition. However, not enough young people vote in our elections for a politician who will lower tuition costs. Conclusion, student debt isn't a big enough problem over the other issues in our society. Such as getting the economy back in shape. Seriously, who cares about a few thousand dollars of student debt, as long as there are good jobs in Canada when you graduate, that debt will be wiped clean in no time. Wake up and smell the coffee.

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Old 01-27-2012 at 10:29 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robots View Post
Last year Canada can spend 29 billion dollars on fighter jets and only a fraction of this, 9 billion, would eliminate student debt in Ontario. The government needs to prioritize its spending and invest in our education.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that 9 billion is a "fraction" of 29. Cutting 31% of anything is quite a large chunk.

Our fleet of CF-18s are aging, and we need new fighter jets. CF-18s are based on a design from the 1980s. Our men and women in uniform deserve to have up-to-date equipment to defend our country. What your suggesting is for them to use 30-year old jets to fight in the Middle East, Arctic, and defend against Russians and Chinese. (And don't even get me started on our helicopters).

Secondly, if you cut military spending, you're asking other UN countries to fight Canada's wars. Nothing comes free, Canada will end up paying more by having to 'hire' another country's military to do our work, or the exchange will happen in a trade of other means (products, services, etc.) You can't be apart of the UN and have no military forces to contribute. I'm sure the Government has done cost-benefit analysis of cutting military spending and came to this conclusion.

Personally, I believe the government has its priorities correct. I think many Canadian agree, since the Conservatives got re-elected in the last election when all this controversy came about.

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Old 01-27-2012 at 10:30 PM   #52
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The big financial problem anyways is Health Care. There was once a politician who said a provincial government will only need two ministers in the not too distant future: Finance to collect the money, and Health to spend it. The fact is with an aging population, and one that is living longer, but not necessarily living in a state of health, health care costs, despite attempts to reign them in, will continue to grow.

There are certainly issues, such as expanding the 30% grant to cover students out of high school longer and part time students on a pro-rated basis, that need to be addressed, however it should probably kept in mind that health care will adsorb most of the money the government can obtain from cutting fat or raising income.
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Old 01-27-2012 at 11:12 PM   #53
EngStud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by britb View Post
Say tuition for UG becomes free/much reduced like you want (!). Wonderful! Everyone gets a Bachelor.

Know what happens? People start having to go to a Masters to get a good job. Bachelor's becomes the new HS diploma. How is that going to help anyone?
Schools have limited spots, so there is a cutoff, and not everyone can get in. Govt doesn't have unlimited funds, so no one is claiming universities will have unlimited spots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan View Post

Why would you raise taxes on corporations? You should always be offering tax incentives to businesses to keep them in Canada, so that you'll have a job when you graduate. I worked at a manufacturing plant for my coop term...long story short, one of the US states offered a better tax incentive than Ontario, and the plant got shut down and the jobs relocated.

I don't understand your logic that a corporation isn't a person, so they should be taxed more?

I have no issues with lobbyists. You have to understand why large corporations have so much power/money in the first place. Because ordinary people (even poor people) give them power/money by buying their products and services. If you don't like big corporations with lots of money/power....simply stop supporting them, that is the most effective way...shop at local mom&pop stores.

Students also have the power to elect a politician that supports their views of lowering tuition. However, not enough young people vote in our elections for a politician who will lower tuition costs. Conclusion, student debt isn't a big enough problem over the other issues in our society. Such as getting the economy back in shape. Seriously, who cares about a few thousand dollars of student debt, as long as there are good jobs in Canada when you graduate, that debt will be wiped clean in no time. Wake up and smell the coffee.
I can't believe conservatism has poisoned the mind of the youths.

Businesses will stay in Canada because , firstly, corporate tax rate was still lower than the US rate before getting the cut. Also Canada gives Quality. For example, Engineers here are well educated and more flexible than India's engineers. Canada has brains, corporations, in general, will want to hire here.

Corporations are groups. Not invidividuals. Therefore, when you raise a corporation's taxes, it doesn't just affect one person in that corporation. Where as individual taxation affects an individual. What I was talking about is this : get back to the original rate because corporations are more powerful than individuals. They produce more so they should be taxed more.

Not enough youth vote ? There's more oldies than youngies anyway. Ever head of da baby boomers ?

Getting the economy back in shape ? Ummm, inflation is linked to tuition costs.

Reducing inflation----> lowers tuition costs.

Plus, an educated youth population means that they will be eligible for better jobs. When they have those jobs or create new ones they'll be able to spend or save more, increasing the GDP.

More debt, less savings, less consumption, you have a generation of debt slaves who won't be able to stimulate domestic or foreign markets.
Old 01-27-2012 at 11:46 PM   #54
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Every single person is arguing against every point that EngStud has mude thus far. And I could counter-point every claim he made in his last post. Now, just because every person is against one other person, it doesn't mean that person is wrong, but statistically, it means they're PROBABLY wrong. On that note, I'm going to go ahead and say: Let's not argue with EngStud anymore.

EngStud: You're right.

If we tax corporations more, they'll stay in Canada. Ignore all the cases where they end up going to the States and shutting down local business and manufacturing.

If we cut tuition, schools are not for profit anyways... Mac will still be able to afford modern labs, modern buildings etc.

And you're TOTALLY right. If we make governments spend more on education NOW, then when you have kids, want some childcare funding, or you need some more medical coverage, or when other government funded services are required, there's no WAY you'd ever lobby the government for that funding, right? They're funding STUDENTS, and in the future, as an adult with other needs, you don't particularly care, as long as STUDENTS are getting funding.

And how 'bout them defence strategies! Holy $#!t, we're not being attacked right now. Why is the government spending ANYTHING?! if they spent just 31% of their defence budget, a SMALL fraction (is 1/3 considered small these days?) on higher education, everything would be PEACHY for students.

I quit. EngStud had it all right all along. TAX THE RICH UNTIL THEY'RE POOR!

Allan says thanks to mike_302 for this post.
Old 01-28-2012 at 12:04 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngStud View Post
I can't believe conservatism has poisoned the mind of the youths.

Businesses will stay in Canada because , firstly, corporate tax rate was still lower than the US rate before getting the cut. Also Canada gives Quality. For example, Engineers here are well educated and more flexible than India's engineers. Canada has brains, corporations, in general, will want to hire here.

Corporations are groups. Not invidividuals. Therefore, when you raise a corporation's taxes, it doesn't just affect one person in that corporation. Where as individual taxation affects an individual. What I was talking about is this : get back to the original rate because corporations are more powerful than individuals. They produce more so they should be taxed more.
Businesses will stay in Canada? Have you been living under a rock? Think about all the jobs that have already been lost to China and India. I agree that Canada has brains and quality, but so do many other countries. Never underestimate the competition. Personally, I think that much of the innovation in Engineering/Technology right now is happening outside of Canada. Think Apple, Samsung, Google, Amazon, etc. Also, it is not only about Engineering...it is the overall cost of running a business that will determine where companies decide to operate.

I still don't understand that corporations are a group, so they should be taxed more??? They produce more so they should be taxed more??? This simply decreases their profits / increase their operation costs. In addition, think about publicly-traded companies. If a Canadian company is less profitable than other companies due to higher taxes, no one would ever purchase stocks/invest in a Canadian company.

Corporate Taxation depends on world market conditions. As pointed out in my previous post, if it is simply more profitable for a company to operate in another country, it is highly likely that they will relocate. It definitely won't attract new companies to start up in Canada either.

Honestly, I think you need to step back and look at the big picture. 20 years from now, you won't even remember your student debt. What will matter is the amount of money your making, the quality of your job/life, quality of health care, etc. Education is a long-term investment, your supposed to accumulate debt at the beginning. It's just like purchasing a car, you'll be in debt, but in the long run it'll help you earn money for getting to/from work.

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Old 01-29-2012 at 02:18 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_302 View Post
And you're TOTALLY right. If we make governments spend more on education NOW, then when you have kids, want some childcare funding, or you need some more medical coverage, or when other government funded services are required, there's no WAY you'd ever lobby the government for that funding, right? They're funding STUDENTS, and in the future, as an adult with other needs, you don't particularly care, as long as STUDENTS are getting funding.

And how 'bout them defence strategies! Holy $#!t, we're not being attacked right now. Why is the government spending ANYTHING?! if they spent just 31% of their defence budget, a SMALL fraction (is 1/3 considered small these days?) on higher education, everything would be PEACHY for students.
I quit. EngStud had it all right all along. TAX THE RICH UNTIL THEY'RE POOR!
I did not say to tax the rich. I did not say cut the university's revenue. I am arguing for the protesters who want the govt to COVER it and deal with INFLATION.

You don't even know what Inflation is anyway. No point arguing with you.


I SAID , tax corporations. Not the rich. You don't even know the difference between a corporation and a rich person. I'll be happy to send you a book that explains the difference. I'm tired of giving you Economics 101 course for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan View Post
Businesses will stay in Canada? Have you been living under a rock? Think about all the jobs that have already been lost to China and India. I agree that Canada has brains and quality, but so do many other countries. Never underestimate the competition. Personally, I think that much of the innovation in Engineering/Technology right now is happening outside of Canada. Think Apple, Samsung, Google, Amazon, etc. Also, it is not only about Engineering...it is the overall cost of running a business that will determine where companies decide to operate.

I still don't understand that corporations are a group, so they should be taxed more??? They produce more so they should be taxed more??? This simply decreases their profits / increase their operation costs. In addition, think about publicly-traded companies. If a Canadian company is less profitable than other companies due to higher taxes, no one would ever purchase stocks/invest in a Canadian company.

Corporate Taxation depends on world market conditions. As pointed out in my previous post, if it is simply more profitable for a company to operate in another country, it is highly likely that they will relocate. It definitely won't attract new companies to start up in Canada either.

Honestly, I think you need to step back and look at the big picture. 20 years from now, you won't even remember your student debt. What will matter is the amount of money your making, the quality of your job/life, quality of health care, etc. Education is a long-term investment, your supposed to accumulate debt at the beginning. It's just like purchasing a car, you'll be in debt, but in the long run it'll help you earn money for getting to/from work.
Ummm .... Apple does hire Canadian engineers..... Actually Canadian engineers do find work much more easily than Indian or Chinese engineers because they have a better a education. Again, you're trying to get yourself into a topic alien to you.

Jobs haven't been lost to US or China or India because of corporate Tax. Name me 5 cases and provide sources. You have the burden of proof.

India and China steal jobs because their labor is cheap. People there work for 5 cents an hour. If anything it's the minimal wage and/or government regulations that ships jobs away.

Last edited by jhan523 : 01-29-2012 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Language
Old 01-29-2012 at 02:32 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan View Post
I wouldn't necessarily agree that 9 billion is a "fraction" of 29. Cutting 31% of anything is quite a large chunk.

Our fleet of CF-18s are aging, and we need new fighter jets. CF-18s are based on a design from the 1980s. Our men and women in uniform deserve to have up-to-date equipment to defend our country. What your suggesting is for them to use 30-year old jets to fight in the Middle East, Arctic, and defend against Russians and Chinese. (And don't even get me started on our helicopters).

Secondly, if you cut military spending, you're asking other UN countries to fight Canada's wars. Nothing comes free, Canada will end up paying more by having to 'hire' another country's military to do our work, or the exchange will happen in a trade of other means (products, services, etc.) You can't be apart of the UN and have no military forces to contribute. I'm sure the Government has done cost-benefit analysis of cutting military spending and came to this conclusion.
Canada's wars? Sorry, I just had to come and rebuke your nonsense.

If you want to fight religious wars, go ahead. I'll be happy to pay for your Crusade. (sarcasm)

Canada has no interest in the Middle East. Canada is in NATO (which is more important the the UN, get your facts right). Under that alliance, any country must defend the other if one is attacked. Each country has to help in terms of their ability to help.

For example, Canada is not expected to deploy big troops in Afghanistan because it only has 68 000 active military personnel.

If Canada gets attacked, Nato or No Nato, America will defend Canada because they would rather have us than the Russians sharing the biggest undefended border in the world.

Anyway if you want to defend a country vast like Canada you need to create pockets of insurgents ready to fight any foreign forces and Canada's space to their advantage. That means Canada has to invest in asymmetrical warfare and play dirty.

Replace CF-18s with f-35 ? Are you kidding me ? Do you know that the F35 they are buying is single engine and they face communications problem in the Arctic. The F15 Silent Eagle would have been a much better deal, it has a much cheaper price tag.

Canada should make it's own fighter jets and bombers. It made the Avro Arrow (fastest plane at it's time). And if you say Canada can't do it, that's not much patriotic of you is it ?

Last edited by EngStud : 01-29-2012 at 02:51 PM.
Old 01-29-2012
mike_302
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Old 01-29-2012 at 03:49 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngStud View Post
Ummm .... Apple does hire Canadian engineers..... Actually Canadian engineers do find work much more easily than Indian or Chinese engineers because they have a better a education. Again, you're trying to get yourself into a topic alien to you.
For F*** sakes....

Jobs haven't been lost to US or China or India because of corporate Tax. Name me 5 cases and provide sources. You have the burden of proof.

India and China steal jobs because their labor is cheap. People there work for ****ing 5 cents an hour. If anything it's the minimal wage and/or government regulations that ships jobs away.
As I said before, "much of the innovation in Engineering/Technology right now is happening outside of Canada." I'm not aware that Apple performs any Engineering work in Canada, I believe that happens in the US, correct me if I'm wrong. It doesn't really help the Canadian economy if foreign companies are able to attract smart Canadians to leave. (Reminder, I believe this topic was started by people who wanted the government to invest more into education, and ultimately improve the future of Canada).

I never said that jobs have been lost due to corporate tax alone, that would be absurd. However I said, "if it is simply more profitable for a company to operate in another country, it is highly likely that they will relocate. It definitely won't attract new companies to start up in Canada either." Obviously higher corporate taxes will cut into their profits, and won't attract new startups in Canada.
Old 01-29-2012 at 04:04 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan View Post
As I said before, "much of the innovation in Engineering/Technology right now is happening outside of Canada." I'm not aware that Apple performs any Engineering work in Canada, I believe that happens in the US, correct me if I'm wrong. It doesn't really help the Canadian economy if foreign companies are able to attract smart Canadians to leave. (Reminder, I believe this topic was started by people who wanted the government to invest more into education, and ultimately improve the future of Canada).

I never said that jobs have been lost due to corporate tax alone, that would be absurd. However I said, "if it is simply more profitable for a company to operate in another country, it is highly likely that they will relocate. It definitely won't attract new companies to start up in Canada either." Obviously higher corporate taxes will cut into their profits, and won't attract new startups in Canada.
http://www.simplyhired.ca/a/jobs/list/c-apple (that's just a few examples, I could get you a list of other foreign tech companies and eng. firms hiring in Canada)

I'm still waiting for the examples of Corporations who had to relocate because of a higher corporate tax.

Next, this isn't challenging. Come on use the "investor/credit" and the bank argument, waiting for it....

@Mike

The Avro Arrow was designed and produced. It just wasn't deployed or "sold". Tests were made and it's abilities were analyzed.

This is why they canceled it :" We did not cancel the CF-105 because there was no bomber threat, but because there was a lesser threat and we got the Bomarc in lieu of more airplanes to look after this. " —George Pearkes, then Minister of National Defence, 1959

The Avro Arrow was Canadian engineering at its best during the 50s. So for you to bash the design is absolutely disrespectful to many Canadians.

Last edited by EngStud : 01-29-2012 at 04:16 PM.



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