Hey guys,

I'm a little indecisive about which level 2 program I want to apply for, and I was wondering if any of you could give me some advice.

I've narrowed it down to three: Honours Life Science, Honours Biology, and Honours Biochemistry. Now, this is what I've heard about each.

Honours Biochemistry - very research/lab based, you do a lot of lab work, group work, presentations, the workload is probably the highest of the 3.

Honours Biology - also a lot of lab courses (at least in second year), more specific than honours life science, good room for electives after second year

Honours Life Science - the most general, good for people who don't want to go into research and want to go onto professional schools like optometry or physiotherapy. Very little lab work and a lot of room for electives.

Is honours life science a good fit for me if I want to go to professional school and I'm not really interested in research/lab work?

Also, are there any chem courses that are very similar to Chem 1AA3/1A03? So far, I LOVE first year chem (more than biology), but I've heard that it gets WAY tougher in second year. I'm already going to take the 2 organic chems in summer school which I know is killer, but are there any easy 2nd year chem electives? Or is it better to just leave chem after orgo? I'm leaning towards Chem Bio 2P03, but is it that much of a jump in difficulty from Chem 1AA3 or is it a good elective to take if you liked 1st year chem?

I'm also very interested in Econ, and if anyone has any advice on some easy second year econ electives, please tell me. Thanks!

I decided to go into honours biology. Honestly though, I felt that my biochem friends had more labs than I did. It gave me a lot of room for electives (but then many 2nd year courses are the same for sciences). If you're not interested in research/lab, I'd suggest going into honours life science or biology since they're more general.

I decided to do organic chemistry during the year and it's definitely doable, but you have to put in a lot of time to practice. Of course, it'd be easier just to devote your summer on one/two courses instead. Chembio2p03 isn't really related to chem1AA3, but it's definitely not an easy elective.

2 organic chems in summer isnt killer. even in the year it isnt killer. chembio 2p03 average is always high too since midterms are theory. the math based problems are on quizzes only iirc. the way marking scheme is set up is good for students since it makes it easy to get high mark. dont worry about this stuff now. lots of info sessions will be held in 2nd term and your interests may change.

After second year, core biochem isn't that much work...probably comparable to bio and you get lots of elective space. A lot of people who do all sorts of professional schools come from the core biochem program, but that's not to say people in the specializations don't or can't. Second year is the most intense if you're in the core program; after that it depends on the electives you take.

For chem, it depends what about chemistry you liked...there are 2nd and 3rd year inorganic courses (2ii3 and 3ii3 I think?), there's a 3rd year organic synthesis course, a 3rd year spectroscopy course, etc. Take a look through the course calendar to see what interests you. All the "units" in first year chem tend to get their own courses in upper years, so if you liked a specific area you can take more courses in that area. In terms of getting "way tougher" in second year, it really depends what specific courses you're looking at.

Personally I hated chembio 2P03 but the course has changed a lot since I took it.

Originally Posted by Silver

2 organic chems in summer isnt killer. even in the year it isnt killer. chembio 2p03 average is always high too since midterms are theory. the math based problems are on quizzes only iirc. the way marking scheme is set up is good for students since it makes it easy to get high mark. dont worry about this stuff now. lots of info sessions will be held in 2nd term and your interests may change.

Are the theory questions difficult or is it almost on par with the theory we learned in Chem 1A03/1AA3 with a bit more detail?

Originally Posted by Angoose

I decided to go into honours biology. Honestly though, I felt that my biochem friends had more labs than I did. It gave me a lot of room for electives (but then many 2nd year courses are the same for sciences). If you're not interested in research/lab, I'd suggest going into honours life science or biology since they're more general.

I decided to do organic chemistry during the year and it's definitely doable, but you have to put in a lot of time to practice. Of course, it'd be easier just to devote your summer on one/two courses instead. Chembio2p03 isn't really related to chem1AA3, but it's definitely not an easy elective.

How were the midterms? Were they fair and how much of the course is brand new information? What's the theory like, is it as hard as 1st year chem theory?

Originally Posted by brady23

How were the midterms? Were they fair and how much of the course is brand new information? What's the theory like, is it as hard as 1st year chem theory?

The midterms were around 16 questions each when I took the course. They were moderately difficult, but maybe this just wasn't my kind of course. The exam was basically two tests, one of which is on new material, while the other is a combination of previous material. There was an option to replace one of your test marks, so there's a bit of leeway if you don't do as well. I just found the lectures and material to be very dry, and the prof/textbook didn't clarify things at all. There are weekly quizzes which will definitely boost your mark, and I found them to be good prep for the tests.

Originally Posted by Angoose

The midterms were around 16 questions each when I took the course. They were moderately difficult, but maybe this just wasn't my kind of course. The exam was basically two tests, one of which is on new material, while the other is a combination of previous material. There was an option to replace one of your test marks, so there's a bit of leeway if you don't do as well. I just found the lectures and material to be very dry, and the prof/textbook didn't clarify things at all. There are weekly quizzes which will definitely boost your mark, and I found them to be good prep for the tests.

Thanks! Were they good prep for the tests though, because aren't the quizzes more calculations, and the tests all theory? I just don't want to regret taking this course. I took Chem 1A03, and I did very well in it, I like how you don't really have to study chem, it's more about keeping up with the work instead. How much harder is the theory, since that's what the exam and tests are on? Is it so much harder than Chem 1AA3?

Look at the mandatory courses for each program. Pick the one that interests you the most.

Professional schools don't care what program you come from so pick what you like. Many people say that theydo better at what you like so go into the program with the courses that interest you the most. Professional schools look at marks and probably require some courses. So if you pick what you like, you will get good marks and will likely be accepted into professional schools.

I took organic chemistry (2A03 + 2B03) in the summer and it was not a killer. It was pretty laid back because I just had one course at a time. I enjoyed learning it but the course difficulty will depend heavily on the professor. Stay away from Dr. Harrison.

Originally Posted by brady23

Thanks! Were they good prep for the tests though, because aren't the quizzes more calculations, and the tests all theory? I just don't want to regret taking this course. I took Chem 1A03, and I did very well in it, I like how you don't really have to study chem, it's more about keeping up with the work instead. How much harder is the theory, since that's what the exam and tests are on? Is it so much harder than Chem 1AA3?

Although I did alright in those three courses, I find chemistry to be very challenging for me. The workload is definitely very minimal. You just go to lecture (optional, I suppose ), do the quizzes, write the tests, and you're golden.

Hm, in terms of theory I found a lot of the concepts to be abstract. Oh yeah, one thing about the lectures; he posts slides without pictures because of a copyright issue. This made studying pretty hilarious for me since I didn't buy the textbook. I didn't go to class, so I'd be staring at the slide saying fig (x) with a blank on it. Maybe THIS is another reason why I found the course hard.
It's probably not harder than the intro-chems. It's just that there are so few questions that you can't afford to get many wrong.

Originally Posted by brady23

Are the theory questions difficult or is it almost on par with the theory we learned in Chem 1A03/1AA3 with a bit more detail?

Originally Posted by brady23

How were the midterms? Were they fair and how much of the course is brand new information? What's the theory like, is it as hard as 1st year chem theory?

Originally Posted by brady23

Thanks! Were they good prep for the tests though, because aren't the quizzes more calculations, and the tests all theory? I just don't want to regret taking this course. I took Chem 1A03, and I did very well in it, I like how you don't really have to study chem, it's more about keeping up with the work instead. How much harder is the theory, since that's what the exam and tests are on? Is it so much harder than Chem 1AA3?

The material covered in 2OA3 and 2OB3 is different from that in 1A03 and 1AA3. Some people find it easier and some find it harder, depending on what you're good at and what "makes sense" to you. The content builds off of the organic unit in 1AA3 (obviously...) but you can't even really compare the level of difficulty of the "theory" because you spend so little time on it in 1AA3. I don't understand how you can ask if it's on par with theory but in more detail...if it's in more detail then it won't be "on par", it's more in depth and thus requires a better understanding of the material. Trying to compare the material covered in the 1A courses vs the 2O courses is kind like comparing bio 1A03 with bio 1M03...sure they're both bio, but completely different nevertheless.

Anyways, it's all about applying the theory...that's actually what you're tested on more than anything else. You know, things like "synthesize this compound" and "do a retrosynthetic analysis of this compound", stuff like that. There's much less MC compared to first year chem. Also, not much in the way of calculations.

I also like how you don't need to study in chem, just understand, but I found 2OA3 was mostly memorizing reagents and lists of reactions and stuff. I thought 2OB3 was much better in terms of understanding concepts well = good mark.

In terms of how much is brand new information, it depends on your background knowledge and any other chem courses you happen to be taking. Some stuff was covered in 1A03, such as a few common/classic reducing/oxidizing agents. For me, I learned a lot of the stuff in orgo in my other courses as well - we even had one lab that was essentially repeated in two different courses, both in the same week - but if I was in a different program and not taking those courses, all of it would have been new information. That's how courses after first year are supposed to be...you stop reviewing what you should have learned in high school and actually start learning new stuff. If you're still reviewing everything, then something is wrong.

Originally Posted by starfish

The material covered in 2OA3 and 2OB3 is different from that in 1A03 and 1AA3. Some people find it easier and some find it harder, depending on what you're good at and what "makes sense" to you. The content builds off of the organic unit in 1AA3 (obviously...) but you can't even really compare the level of difficulty of the "theory" because you spend so little time on it in 1AA3. I don't understand how you can ask if it's on par with theory but in more detail...if it's in more detail then it won't be "on par", it's more in depth and thus requires a better understanding of the material. Trying to compare the material covered in the 1A courses vs the 2O courses is kind like comparing bio 1A03 with bio 1M03...sure they're both bio, but completely different nevertheless.

Anyways, it's all about applying the theory...that's actually what you're tested on more than anything else. You know, things like "synthesize this compound" and "do a retrosynthetic analysis of this compound", stuff like that. There's much less MC compared to first year chem. Also, not much in the way of calculations.

I also like how you don't need to study in chem, just understand, but I found 2OA3 was mostly memorizing reagents and lists of reactions and stuff. I thought 2OB3 was much better in terms of understanding concepts well = good mark.

In terms of how much is brand new information, it depends on your background knowledge and any other chem courses you happen to be taking. Some stuff was covered in 1A03, such as a few common/classic reducing/oxidizing agents. For me, I learned a lot of the stuff in orgo in my other courses as well - we even had one lab that was essentially repeated in two different courses, both in the same week - but if I was in a different program and not taking those courses, all of it would have been new information. That's how courses after first year are supposed to be...you stop reviewing what you should have learned in high school and actually start learning new stuff. If you're still reviewing everything, then something is wrong.

Thanks. That question was more about Chem Bio 2P03 though, I know the organic chemistry courses are basically brand new, we haven't really done anything like it except in 1AA3, but even that is very minimal, but chem bio 2p03 content is similar to 1st year chem from what I've seen in the outline, so I just wanted to know what separates them.

Originally Posted by brady23

Thanks. That question was more about Chem Bio 2P03 though, I know the organic chemistry courses are basically brand new, we haven't really done anything like it except in 1AA3, but even that is very minimal, but chem bio 2p03 content is similar to 1st year chem from what I've seen in the outline, so I just wanted to know what separates them.

Chem Bio 2P03 is not similar to first-year at all. It builds off some first year concepts (of course - mainly thermodynamics), but the material is more challenging. That said, the course is structured in such a way that obtaining a good mark is not overly difficult and the grading is very concrete (all graded material is Scantron/computer MC). You will have written practice problems to be discussed in tutorial, but they are just that - practice.

Dr. Kruse and his TAs are also very helpful in answering questions, either by in-person meetings (office hours), or by Avenue/e-mail. You do have to memorize formulae for the midterms (in-class, non-cumulative), but they are simple and you can get lots of practice.