Hi everyone,

So I recently accepted my offer to Mac's engineering program and I just read this post that was made in 2010 about the fact that Mac's 12 point grading system is unfair. This is what the person said:

This post is about the 12 point grading system that McMaster has (one of the only schools that does) and why it's a highly flawed system of scoring everyone's GPA.

Usually schools give you percent grades and average out the grades which makes sense, but with the 12 point scale, in one simple average that computers do, people's GPA’s can drop upwards of ten percent. There is never a case where the student gets higher or even the same as what they deserve, it is always substantially lower.

Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent.

If you average out your own grades and then compare it to the point average at the bottom of your transcript you'll also see that your mark has been dropped by at least a couple percent. My mark has been underestimated by 6 percent and that’s assuming that I got the lowest percent in each point bracket. Since we don’t know our percent, but we do know the range, try it both ways. Average out the highest percentage you could have gotten and the lowest percentage you could have gotten (ex. a 9 and a 10 could be either 79% and 84% or 77% and 80%). In either case, that average will be higher than the one your transcript says. There is no mathematical way for McMaster to ever give you a GPA of what you actually got or higher, it is always significantly lower.

Another simpler example: if in two courses I get 78 percent and 82 percent, you would think that my average would be 80. It makes sense on a numerical level. Let’s convert that to points- 9 and 10. The average of the two points is 9.5, which is not an 80 percent; it is actually around a 78 percent. So according to McMaster, the average of 78 and 80 is 78. This point system essentially ‘screws you over’ as you don’t get the marks that you deserve and when applying to a higher level education you are competing with students from universities that give them proper representations of their marks.

At first, when I figured this out I thought maybe there was something I was missing- so I went to the registrar’s office looking for answers. I came out of there leaving them confused. All they said was “we don’t know what happens, we just get the grades from the faculties and put it in the computer and they churn out this number”. So after all the hard work done by professors and students around Mac to get their marks the highest it can be, their cumulative average is “churned out” by a computer that no one at registrar seems to understand and in turn is underestimated. They assume that any average is a fair average, and that averaging out a bunch of points with different weights (i.e. points 1-9 have a range of 3-4% while a 12 has a range of 10%) gives everyone a proper GPA. This is a very flawed way of taking someone’s average and is unfair to every registered student at McMaster.

Can some comment on this because I am a little confused? Is this true?

Yes it's true... I think that's what you were asking. Every school that uses a GPA scale has the same problem. The 4.0 scale is very common and does the exact same thing shown here http://studentsuccess.mcmast er.ca/...ion-chart.html

It has its benefits and drawbacks like every system. I am happy with Mac's since it keeps people from killing themselves if we had a % scale. Stress is already high enough and now just imagine that when getting into super competitive programs, that you're 95% wasn't enough. On the other hand if you were shooting for a pefect average, the school doesn't know if you got a 90.0% or a 99%, so it does give you some leeway too.

Originally Posted by km101

Hi everyone,

So I recently accepted my offer to Mac's engineering program and I just read this post that was made in 2010 about the fact that Mac's 12 point grading system is unfair. This is what the person said:

This post is about the 12 point grading system that McMaster has (one of the only schools that does) and why it's a highly flawed system of scoring everyone's GPA.

Usually schools give you percent grades and average out the grades which makes sense, but with the 12 point scale, in one simple average that computers do, people's GPA’s can drop upwards of ten percent. There is never a case where the student gets higher or even the same as what they deserve, it is always substantially lower.

Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent.

If you average out your own grades and then compare it to the point average at the bottom of your transcript you'll also see that your mark has been dropped by at least a couple percent. My mark has been underestimated by 6 percent and that’s assuming that I got the lowest percent in each point bracket. Since we don’t know our percent, but we do know the range, try it both ways. Average out the highest percentage you could have gotten and the lowest percentage you could have gotten (ex. a 9 and a 10 could be either 79% and 84% or 77% and 80%). In either case, that average will be higher than the one your transcript says. There is no mathematical way for McMaster to ever give you a GPA of what you actually got or higher, it is always significantly lower.

Another simpler example: if in two courses I get 78 percent and 82 percent, you would think that my average would be 80. It makes sense on a numerical level. Let’s convert that to points- 9 and 10. The average of the two points is 9.5, which is not an 80 percent; it is actually around a 78 percent. So according to McMaster, the average of 78 and 80 is 78. This point system essentially ‘screws you over’ as you don’t get the marks that you deserve and when applying to a higher level education you are competing with students from universities that give them proper representations of their marks.

At first, when I figured this out I thought maybe there was something I was missing- so I went to the registrar’s office looking for answers. I came out of there leaving them confused. All they said was “we don’t know what happens, we just get the grades from the faculties and put it in the computer and they churn out this number”. So after all the hard work done by professors and students around Mac to get their marks the highest it can be, their cumulative average is “churned out” by a computer that no one at registrar seems to understand and in turn is underestimated. They assume that any average is a fair average, and that averaging out a bunch of points with different weights (i.e. points 1-9 have a range of 3-4% while a 12 has a range of 10%) gives everyone a proper GPA. This is a very flawed way of taking someone’s average and is unfair to every registered student at McMaster.

Can some comment on this because I am a little confused? Is this true?

Mac's grading system is fine. It is converted fairly in medical, law, dental or other professional or graduate schools. FYI, all the schools, the lower grades have a narrow range while A+ always has a 10% range, so that is pretty fair. If you really complain about the percentages, then I can tell you that you WILL suffer if they show the actual percentage you have. For medical/dental schools, a 12 is considered a 95, but if they actually calculate your average based on actual percentages, it is going to be much lower. 11.9 IS NOT 89%, no school calculates like that! So if you have an 11 and a 12, your grade would be (87.5+95)/2, not 89%. which would be much higher cause its unlikely you would get 95+ when you get a 12.

So this part is true:

"Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent."

If it is then isn't that incredibly unfair?

Originally Posted by km101

So this part is true:

"Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent."

If it is then isn't that incredibly unfair?

Yeah, it's full of shit. Now what? Rioting and looting?

Originally Posted by km101

So this part is true:

"Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent."

If it is then isn't that incredibly unfair?

First, if you got 39 12's, those could all be 90-91%, so no, your average is not "obviously" in the high 90s.

Second, as was stated earlier, 11.9 is NOT 89%. You cannot convert your 12-point average back into a percent. For schools that convert for the purposes of calculating a percentage GPA, they tend to take the mid-point of the range for each course and then average that out.

Third, in all of your examples you're assuming that you always get the upper limit of each range, which is highly unlikely, especially for the 12-point range.

For all of those above reasons, your conclusion that a single 11 drops your average by 10% is false.

And just fyi, people do get straight 12's. There is an award for getting straight 12's in a session.

Also, this whole concept of a "perfect 4.0" is American, and on American scales, a 4.0 is typically 85%+.

Yea, it's more skewed toward doing well. If you're in the 70's each few % is a grade point while in the upper range it is 5-10%

Originally Posted by km101

Hi everyone,

So I recently accepted my offer to Mac's engineering program and I just read this post that was made in 2010 about the fact that Mac's 12 point grading system is unfair. This is what the person said:

This post is about the 12 point grading system that McMaster has (one of the only schools that does) and why it's a highly flawed system of scoring everyone's GPA.

Usually schools give you percent grades and average out the grades which makes sense, but with the 12 point scale, in one simple average that computers do, people's GPA’s can drop upwards of ten percent. There is never a case where the student gets higher or even the same as what they deserve, it is always substantially lower.

Let me give you an example. Let's say in all four years I get 39 courses with a grade of 12 and one course with a grade of 11. You would think that my average would obviously be in the high nineties. But if we do what McMaster does, averages out the numbers 12, 12, 12, ..., 12, 11 it turns out to be 11.9, which is an 89 percent. So I could get 100 percent in 39 courses and 89 percent in one course and my average would be 89. About ten percent less than it would be if we had just averaged out the percentages alone. It is nearly impossible to get a GPA of 4.0 because that would mean every single course on your transcript has to be a 12. A single 11 would drop your average by ten percent.

If you average out your own grades and then compare it to the point average at the bottom of your transcript you'll also see that your mark has been dropped by at least a couple percent. My mark has been underestimated by 6 percent and that’s assuming that I got the lowest percent in each point bracket. Since we don’t know our percent, but we do know the range, try it both ways. Average out the highest percentage you could have gotten and the lowest percentage you could have gotten (ex. a 9 and a 10 could be either 79% and 84% or 77% and 80%). In either case, that average will be higher than the one your transcript says. There is no mathematical way for McMaster to ever give you a GPA of what you actually got or higher, it is always significantly lower.

Another simpler example: if in two courses I get 78 percent and 82 percent, you would think that my average would be 80. It makes sense on a numerical level. Let’s convert that to points- 9 and 10. The average of the two points is 9.5, which is not an 80 percent; it is actually around a 78 percent. So according to McMaster, the average of 78 and 80 is 78. This point system essentially ‘screws you over’ as you don’t get the marks that you deserve and when applying to a higher level education you are competing with students from universities that give them proper representations of their marks.

At first, when I figured this out I thought maybe there was something I was missing- so I went to the registrar’s office looking for answers. I came out of there leaving them confused. All they said was “we don’t know what happens, we just get the grades from the faculties and put it in the computer and they churn out this number”. So after all the hard work done by professors and students around Mac to get their marks the highest it can be, their cumulative average is “churned out” by a computer that no one at registrar seems to understand and in turn is underestimated. They assume that any average is a fair average, and that averaging out a bunch of points with different weights (i.e. points 1-9 have a range of 3-4% while a 12 has a range of 10%) gives everyone a proper GPA. This is a very flawed way of taking someone’s average and is unfair to every registered student at McMaster.

Can some comment on this because I am a little confused? Is this true?

Although McMaster may be one of the few schools that uses the 12-point system, this system is analogous to the vast majority of grading systems used by other undergraduate programs across the country. It is by NO means unique to McMaster.

Is it fair? I don't see how it is unfair. Each of your grades is translated to a letter grade (i.e. an A- = 10) which is then translated to a GPA (3.7). All of your GPAs are summated to make a composite GPA. Why use this system? Because it highlights inconsistencies in your performance far better than a percentage-based system does. It ensures you are meeting high standards not excessively in one or two courses but collectively in all of them.