Originally Posted by Bobble

One of the harmful forms of this discrimination that you continue to see in idiotic sitcoms is that "men can't take care of the home or children." The best argument I've heard about this came from feminists talking about how to create gender equality and reduce the wage gap between men and women.

Until men are seen as competent caregivers and managers of the home, women will never gain equality in the workplace since they will be naturally expected to stay home with the children. Until it's seen as normal for men to do this, women will continue to face the wage gap. :(

It's almost funny.. considering my dad was the competent one and my mother the useless golddigger.

My dad cooked, cleaned, raised me and my brother, and was the breadwinner. I respect that man.

How I hate this society.

Male suicide rates are much higher than female suicide rates, and there are many illnesses that affect only men.

Oh wow, really? Do you mind posting a link to these stats? I'd like to read more about it. That's definitely opposite of what I would think.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Oh wow, really? Do you mind posting a link to these stats? I'd like to read more about it. That's definitely opposite of what I would think.[/color][/color]

It's true because men are more likely to act on it than women, who are more likely to talk about doing it but never actually go through it. Men have problems but I feel like society doesn't make it okay for them to express or talk about their issues.

http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre.../en/index.html

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Oh wow, really? Do you mind posting a link to these stats? I'd like to read more about it. That's definitely opposite of what I would think.

http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre.../en/index.html

In Canada, over 3 times as many male suicides as female.

In the States, almost 4 times as many.

It's shocking.

Granted, some of these stats might have changed, but the trend is pretty evident.

Originally Posted by rohan10

http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre.../en/index.html

In Canada, over 3 times as many male suicides as female.

In the States, almost 4 times as many.

It's shocking.

Granted, some of these stats might have changed, but the trend is pretty evident.

Definitely interesting, since I assume that one would think it's the females with all the problems (body image for one, just off the top of my head).

But yea, I can definitely imagine that men would be more likely to act out their thoughts than females. Don't know why, I just get that impression. Does anyone know of any studies about this topic? I think it'd be interesting to read.

Side note: I'm impressed that some places don't have any reported suicides. :O

Originally Posted by rohan10

http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre.../en/index.html

In Canada, over 3 times as many male suicides as female.

In the States, almost 4 times as many.

It's shocking.

Granted, some of these stats might have changed, but the trend is pretty evident.

Part of the reason why males are higher is that women tend to choose "softer" methods for suicide, such as drugs. Men tend to shoot themselves or use other methods that have a much higher mortality rate. That doesn't explain the discrepency away however. You guys are right, this has everything to do with the construction of contemporary masculinity.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Side note: I'm impressed that some places don't have any reported suicides. :O

It's usually because some countries don't have modern methds to keep track of that stuff or it's not recored properly. Thats why you have to be careful when you compare suicide rates between countries.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

It's almost funny.. considering my dad was the competent one and my mother the useless golddigger.

My dad cooked, cleaned, raised me and my brother, and was the breadwinner. I respect that man.

How I hate this society.

You know, the number of people with analogous situations is so much higher than the average person thinks. I kinda hate this society too (but partly due to reasons you wouldn't agree with :p).

Originally Posted by Fish

I'm pretty sure the only reason there are women study courses is because women felt they werent being treated with equality... so they had to make a course to prove it.
So... when in history have men been subject to sexism...?

*shrug* Amazons? I remember seeing some on Xena.

But on a more serious note, men are currently the victims of sexism in many ways. It all stems from some sort of cultural 'eye for an eye' mentality where all men are the scum of the earth, and so must be labelled and treated as such for as long as it takes us to get bored of it all.

---------

I think a Male Studies course could be quite interesting, but perhaps not in a 'historical' context. I'm rather tired, and so this may not be the most eloquent way of stating this but:

Of the two genders (I don't go out for that 'five gender' stuff...all it does is raise more boundaries and accomplish next to nothing), which is the one which is 'socially' more difficult in this day and age?

eg. Can I wear a pink shirt without being accused of being a homosexual? Can I cry when I stub my toe? (Crying is part of a physiological process designed to reduce physical and emotional pain...a luxury men don't have in this society)

Could a woman?

A woman can wear men's clothing or behave in a 'manly' way and still be socially accepted**...while conversely, a man who likes girly stuff is labelled as 'fruity.' The psychological and physiological implications of this are pretty serious business. For instance, we all know about menopause...how many of us know there is actually something called "andropause?" (and it's not just some BS)

It may not be as 'weird' physiologically as menopause...but men must largely deal with their version of menopause untreated and unnoticed. And these are all changeable things! Nothing is set in stone.

**I realize that there is a flip side of the coin...for instance, stuff like obesity. A 'fat man' is more socially acceptable than a 'fat woman' which isn't right either...but two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe a Gender Studies program, combining Women's Studies and Male Studies, would be easier to put in place. That's something I might actually be interested in taking a few courses in.

"But yea, I can definitely imagine that men would be more likely to act out their thoughts than females. Don't know why, I just get that impression."

this is just one of the reasons why their are women's studies courses. I will have to admit that until a few months ago I was like most men and women that assumed feminists were just women hating on men, reading into things too much and making everything a gender issue. Once you take a course like women's studies, and take it seriously.... you'll understand why it is important. It's not a course to bash men (which i still thought for the first few weeks of class) it's about patriarchy and how women are perceived by both genders, in history, in the media, and how they are influenced by these perceptions. It is not just about women, but all minorities, including people of "colour" and homosexuals/bisexuals/transgender people etc.

I realized how ignorant i was to assume that the oppression of women, and people of colour, was limited or non existant in Canada, while i don't think men as a whole should necessarily be blamed or "punished", everyone should really take a step back and think about what they're reading or saying, in comparison to if the women in the scenario was a male. I'm not going to ramble on anymore b/c unfortunately this is one of those things you have to realize for yourself.

Um, how is that a reason for why there are women's studies? I really don't think you explained that well at all.

I think men are more likely to commit suicide than to sit around and cry about "woe is me" all day, just like I think men are more likely to kill.

If anything, if it warrants a women's studies, shouldn't it also warrant a male's studies?

Mowicz through a course like women's studies you'll realize why those examples you gave are not examples of male oppression. First off, lots of men wear pink and aren't called homosexual and alot of men cry and aren't bashed. The problem is that women are perceived a certain way without doing anything at all, and these are things that LIMIT them as a person. Example: people assume women are cry babies that whine and cry over everything. The second thing is, because wmen's studies is about patriarchy, the reason a male would be bashed for something "gay" is because the ideal male is a heterosexual.... so (i know i'm not explaining this perfectly, sorry) technically the oppression would be directed to a homosexual male (becuse the bashing isn't necessarily for wearing pink, it's becuse being gay is not acceptable.. right?)

And the women wearing male clothing... how many women do you know that wear suits (just like men do) and not "female" suits (tighter fitting, sometimes skirts, and almost always heels). The biggest issue here is that people STILL argue that men are oppressed more than women and try to make a fact out of it (JUST like i used to!! ) but the biggest form of oppression for women is that they have all of these bad character traits associated with them, are constantly bashed in the media, are continuously used and raped and trafficked around the world,and are underrepretended in nearly everything, yet people are still saying "oh my gosh.. men have it so bad they're expected to work out and not wear pink and can't wear high heels". Until you take the course I honestly don't think you should guesstimate who has it worse. When you actually have to ask and search "what men were oppressed in history" should make you realized that this is a very important and serious course .. but more so it's an impotant issue to learnabout.

Also, with the menopause thing, why do you think people know about it and not the male "version"? This is when people need to take a step back. What is associated with menopause? embaressment, mood swings, old age, non fertile, depression, anger, emotional. It's present in tv shows and jokes and used to make women feel ashamed of themselves.... but no, men go through something similar and it is not publicized or attached to males to "limit " them. Sorry i said i wouldn't ramble and i did.... i'll have to say it again, until you take the course you will sit there and think of every little thing (once again... just like i did) that seems like it opprsses males, but in the end... patriarchy has had control over all minorities (minorities referring to anything but heterosexual white males) in different ways.

Sorry lawleypop that i didn't do the course justice, but i think millions of other people will agree that it's there for a reason

yes there are male studies and gender studies... there are courses that discuss societies control on genders and gender seperation, and it's been discussed in alot of courses.... we're not talking about these courses, i was explaining women's studies considering clearly many people have not taken the course and do't even udnerstand what it discusses

Yes men are more likely to commit suicide, however women are more likely to attempt it because they use less deadly things (pills rather than guns)

Originally Posted by Bree_21

Sorry lawleypop that i didn't do the course justice, but i think millions of other people will agree that it's there for a reason

yes there are male studies and gender studies... there are courses that discuss societies control on genders and gender seperation, and it's been discussed in alot of courses.... we're not talking about these courses, i was explaining women's studies considering clearly many people have not taken the course and do't even udnerstand what it discusses

You quoted something I said saying this is exactly WHY that's why there's women studies. I'm asking WHY that one thing I said is one of the reason these courses exist. Still waiting for an answer.

Yes men are more likely to commit suicide, however women are more likely to attempt it because they use less deadly things (pills rather than guns

Do you have any sort of proof whatsoever i the correlation between method of suicide and attempts of suicide?

Ohhhh sorry I didn't understand what you were asking. I thought i explained it a little bit. Basically people have perceived impressions of women based on their gender and their gender alone.

Ex: women are: weak, cry babies, less intelligent than males, and have much higher expectations but are still bashed no matter what they do

in your post you said that you have no idea why you think males would act out on their thoughts more than women. if someone were to really look into that there is a distinction of how you (and others) perceive women vs. men.

Why i said this is why womens studies is important is because these perceptions should be studied and adresed, we should know why we think of women as one way and men as another, we should realized things like why is it that all female animals are attached to negative character traits and males are attached to traits that make them more positive and powerful. (ex: fat cow vs. powerful bull,) even witches vs. wizards. Why when i say a cop pulled me over you automatically assume it was male. And why is it that i wouldn't think twice before saying female officer but would never say male officer...?

Please don't say i have a stick up my bum, not really necessary