Originally Posted by lawleypop

A first year student in the Math&Stats program isn't a mathematician.

As far as I know, you don't have to be a mathematician to try and analyse something mathematically.

Keep it on topic please.

Originally Posted by Tailsnake

The major issue behind the education thing is a lack of standardization. Everyone from Ontario is working with the same standards for highschool education, yet you still see differing (sometimes wildly so) results from school to school. If you start taking into consideration out of province schools that may have the same general mandates, but slightly different curricula, you quickly find an even larger range of school qualities. International schools can be an even bigger mixed bag. Controlling for quality of education, content of education, and corruption (people buy degrees/bribing teachers/schools for marks) becomes impossible on a global scale.

It's a shame when someone with a PhD from somewhere else in the world cannot practice here, but a PhD from country X is not necessarily the same as a PhD here. My real issue is that the government doesn't fund some sort of standardized tests to allow people who really do have the level of education we require to be recognized here, it makes no sense for a trained MD with years of experience and an education good enough to be considered the same as ours to be driving a taxi when our country is in dire need of practicing physicians.

I definitely agree that there has to be some level of making sure people are qualified, something like a few written tests, some interviews, and maybe a month long probationary period.

I don't remember the exact story now, since it happened in 2006, but St. Margaret's had managed to get a world class heart surgeon from Britain who was moving to Canada. He decided against moving after being told that he would be required to start his residency over to practice in Ontario. Or something egregious like that, I don't remember exactly what they had wanted him to do.

Originally Posted by Tailsnake

The level of immigration our country can logically sustain while maintaining a good first world economy is considerably lower than the level of immigration we would have if we had an open immigration policy. The easiest way for the government to lower the level of immigration is to raise the bar and only accept people above a certain level. The idea that it's only hugely successful people isn't fully correct, the government is essentially looking for people that are not a potential weight on society. This includes successful families/individuals, individuals with decently successful family already living here willing to help them out, international students who were educated here and have found jobs/careers, etc. What the government really wants to prevent is person X coming over here, finding out that maybe his skills/degree do not transfer here, working a low paying job, and possibly ending up on welfare if any sort of injury or if a child came into the picture. It's an unfortunate situation for people looking for a better life in this country that don't fit the profile Canada is looking for, and it definitely does increase illegal immigration, but I really can't think of a significantly more efficient way to allow immigration.

I think that some economic measures like GDP per capita would show our economy as suffering if we had an influx in poorer people, but I don't think our economy would actually suffer. Yes we'd have a larger amount of people who are only qualified to work lower paying jobs, but low paying jobs by Canadian standards would still entail a huge quality of life increase for many people. And yes, we would see higher unemployment at first, and a higher competition for jobs. But when you introduce that many people you also create demands for services, which help stem that in the long term. The only people who actually might be "harmed" are people who currently work jobs that anyone can do, who might find themselves no longer needed. But that isn't much different than outsourcing labour, except that we keep those jobs in Canada and taxable.

You're right that there does have to be some trade off though. Some people pay more via taxes than they get in service, some people get more from services than they pay in taxes. And an increase in the latter group could possibly happen, straining government services and requiring us to foot the bill in tax dollars. But if the reason we provide these services is because they're universal necessaries (a common argument for things like health care and other social services) than we shouldn't deny people them because it will cost more. Otherwise we shouldn't be running them in the first place.

One alternative that is less politically charged than raising taxes or cutting services is to require people to have contributed a certain amount in taxes before they get access to government programs like that. I'm probably oversimplifying some bigger problems though.

Anyway, how did you find the midterm?

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

I just wish that Canada was more like the states where people actually want to assimilate.

You mean you want to live like sardines? :p

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

On the flip side immigrants don't get their valid masters/phd degrees accredited and hence have to work at Walmart/Shoppers Drug Mart for minimum wage

If a PhD/Masters awarded in another part of the world is not 'accredited' then that means it does not match the standards of a PhD/Masters in this part of the world.

How many people with a Bachelors have to work minimum wage jobs? If the Bachelors is roughly equivalent to a higher degree in another part of the world, then the people with PhD's etc. really only have Bachelors.

Remember, the name of the degree means shit all...it represents the knowledge/skills you've acquired. If you don't have the necessary skills, then I'd rather you drove my taxi than did my open heart surgery...and that's whether you're an immigrant or you were born, raised and educated in Canada.

Also note that if you demonstrate that you have said skills (like by taking a comprehensive exam and passing it (that part is crucial)), then any immigrant is capable of working a solid job here.

tl;dr Unless you want to claim prejudice against the underqualified for being underqualified, there's nothing 'racial' going on here.

----------

And by the way, to Cheri, yes a first year student is a mathematician if they are doing mathematics. It's not a term that's regulated like "MD" or "Lawyer" and simply means someone who knows and practices mathematics.

It's like saying "A kid who plays pee-wee hockey is not a hockey player." Yes they are...it doesn't say anything about the person's proficiency at said activity, but they're playing hockey and hence hockey players.

Likewise, anyone who questions and uses mathematics in an appropriate way is a mathematician.

Besides...it's not like you can't learn math independently and prove an important theorem without an education. Some of the world's smartest people, which I anticipate is contrary to the beliefs of people on this forum, never went to university. And similarly, some of the world's stupidest idiots did.

Assimilation is probably the wrong word.

I don't wish we were more like the states.

That said rcrw88 made a good point on the previous page.

I just want to say that by assimilation, i don't mean it in the pejorative sense; acceptance of the values that we find positive as Canadians: womans rights, tolerance for the LGBT, respect for other cultures/traditions/religions and learning to speak english. When theres a high immigration rate of a particular type of people, there can be a tendancy to create mini-pockets of their own cultural communities and can become very isolationist, but generally younger people beat tradition.

These are key things that are important to embrace, not full assimilation.

I don't understand when people move to a different Country and then proceed to live exactly the way they would in their home land, or the people who constantly talk about how XYZ about their home Country is so much better than Canada. Its like then why did you move here?

Originally Posted by Mowicz

You mean you want to live like sardines? :p



If a PhD/Masters awarded in another part of the world is not 'accredited' then that means it does not match the standards of a PhD/Masters in this part of the world.

How many people with a Bachelors have to work minimum wage jobs? If the Bachelors is roughly equivalent to a higher degree in another part of the world, then the people with PhD's etc. really only have Bachelors.

Remember, the name of the degree means shit all...it represents the knowledge/skills you've acquired. If you don't have the necessary skills, then I'd rather you drove my taxi than did my open heart surgery...and that's whether you're an immigrant or you were born, raised and educated in Canada.

Also note that if you demonstrate that you have said skills (like by taking a comprehensive exam and passing it (that part is crucial)), then any immigrant is capable of working a solid job here.

tl;dr Unless you want to claim prejudice against the underqualified for being underqualified, there's nothing 'racial' going on here.

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And by the way, to Cheri, yes a first year student is a mathematician if they are doing mathematics. It's not a term that's regulated like "MD" or "Lawyer" and simply means someone who knows and practices mathematics.

It's like saying "A kid who plays pee-wee hockey is not a hockey player." Yes they are...it doesn't say anything about the person's proficiency at said activity, but they're playing hockey and hence hockey players.

Likewise, anyone who questions and uses mathematics in an appropriate way is a mathematician.

Besides...it's not like you can't learn math independently and prove an important theorem without an education. Some of the world's smartest people, which I anticipate is contrary to the beliefs of people on this forum, never went to university. And similarly, some of the world's stupidest idiots did.

Is there a purpose to getting hung up on schemantics and missing the point entirely?

Allow me to try again, with something that probably can't be argued/denied: Just because I consider myself a 10, doesn't mean I am a 10.

XD

I have to comment on this: Can you really be a minority in 2031 if you've been on the rise significantly since 2010 ?

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Can you please elaborate on how you came up with that statistic that is ~factual?
I never knew one could judge ones credentials/chances for getting a job and somehow also be aware of the internal process that goes behind hiring.

This argument regarding affirmative action actually came up ironically today in CLAY manual committee meeting today and some girl(From a white background mind you) from labour studies actually said that even though those laws are in place the firms make little to no effort to enforce them & a level of discrimination still exists. It is only very public companies like Banks & Multinationals(MCD's) that have to adhere to a certain image. I don't personally know enough about the job market to directly comment but I would assume being in labour studies her statement was based on some evidence?

On the flip side immigrants don't get their valid masters/phd degrees accredited and hence have to work at Walmart/Shoppers Drug Mart for minimum wage, similarly I randomly read that employers are less likely to hire some people from minorities because of inhibitions and lack of understanding about their culture and how that is perceived as a sign that they won't fit within the work environment/team.

Tl;dr Affirmative action isn't ONLY because and for the reasons of guilty conscience by "white" people.

Well banks( i think there are 5 major ones in Canada), government(municipal, provincial and federal) and MCD's make up a significant portion of the labour market. Also, it really isn't fair you keep bringing up the immigrants with Phds/masters degrees and that they arent able to get really good jobs in Canada. We have a lot of new grads that don't have jobs and there are grads with a Masters degrees that are unemployed and take poorly paid jobs.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Is there a purpose to getting hung up on schemantics and missing the point entirely?

Allow me to try again, with something that probably can't be argued/denied: Just because I consider myself a 10, doesn't mean I am a 10.

XD

While that's true, it also doesn't mean you're not a 10 lol. Whether you are or not, feeling as though you are is not what makes you a 10...they're independent (although in ways related...if you feel confident, it shows).

Likewise, 'mathematical maturity' does not depend directly on education...but it does help to provide some of the tools to be a more successful mathematician. Many very important theorems were proven by people who had not yet even completed their bachelors...these were of course, unsolved by hundreds of egg-heads with PhDs for many years.

The point is that you've fallen into the trap of thinking (or at least saying) that because someone's "uneducated" they don't know what they're talking about...and that's what I'm trying to point out as being incorrect.

Originally Posted by mike_302

I have to comment on this: Can you really be a minority in 2031 if you've been on the rise significantly since 2010 ?

if your racial group is still less of a percentage of the population then another group, yes.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

While that's true, it also doesn't mean you're not a 10 lol. Whether you are or not, feeling as though you are is not what makes you a 10...they're independent (although in ways related...if you feel confident, it shows).

Likewise, 'mathematical maturity' does not depend directly on education...but it does help to provide some of the tools to be a more successful mathematician. Many very important theorems were proven by people who had not yet even completed their bachelors...these were of course, unsolved by hundreds of egg-heads with PhDs for many years.

The point is that you've fallen into the trap of thinking (or at least saying) that because someone's "uneducated" they don't know what they're talking about...and that's what I'm trying to point out as being incorrect.

You are not a mathematician or sociologist if you are studying them in school, but you can be a student of sociology or mathematics.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

While that's true, it also doesn't mean you're not a 10 lol. Whether you are or not, feeling as though you are is not what makes you a 10...they're independent (although in ways related...if you feel confident, it shows).

Likewise, 'mathematical maturity' does not depend directly on education...but it does help to provide some of the tools to be a more successful mathematician. Many very important theorems were proven by people who had not yet even completed their bachelors...these were of course, unsolved by hundreds of egg-heads with PhDs for many years.

The point is that you've fallen into the trap of thinking (or at least saying) that because someone's "uneducated" they don't know what they're talking about...and that's what I'm trying to point out as being incorrect.

I in no way think that Huzaifa is uneducated or doesn't know what he's talking about. And I don't mean to imply that because you're not formally educated doesn't make you something (ie: one of the reasons why I'm not in school for graphic design, I don't believe that you can be taught art or that you need an education to be considered a graphics designer)

With that being said, I don' consider myself a graphics designer. I dabble with Photoshop, at best.

I completely agree that you don't need a formal education to become a philosopher/a sociologist/an anthropologist/a musician/WHATEVER (and tbh, don't even know where I implied that ). But instead I argue that 1-xx number of years does not make you a philosopher/sociologist/anthropologist/musician/etc.

My intro to anthro class I took last year does not make me an anthropologist. Same as my intro to psych class.

I cannot provide a time frame of how long I think it would take to officially be declared as a "whatever," educated or uneducated. But I do think it's foolish to consider yourself a formal "whatever" without years of study/experience/knowledge.''

Do I doubt that Huzaifa was ever incorrect about anything? No. In fact, I always read his posts. The only problem I've ever had is the way he portrayed himself (as being a sociologist)

and I bring that up because this is what spurred the conversation, but I'll probably drop it soon so I don't get another warning, rofl.

Originally Posted by Mowicz

Likewise, anyone who questions and uses mathematics in an appropriate way is a mathematician.

Originally Posted by jo87

You are not a mathematician or sociologist if you are studying them in school, but you can be a student of sociology or mathematics.

brb, editing resume

*changes title to Professional student of software engineering and embedded systems + mathematician*

Sorry I didn't read the last 5 posts or so, but lack of standardization is not the problem. Some of you need to watch what you're saying because you're coming off as very anti-immigration (which is okay if that's your belief, but if it's not you might want to re word yourself)

Canada's system takes years to become a PR and eventually citizen. Sponsorships take between 2 and 7 years depending on who you're sponsoring in the family class (spouses vs. parents vs. children) and you must prove financial responsibility (make a certain amount) the individuals must do tons of paperwork, interviews, police checks, health checks etc. To come here as a worker/entrepeneur or whatever you need assets of 300,000 that you plan on spending on opening a business. The only case where people come and will require financial aid, and will not speak english (BTW we are a bilingual nation... you don't need to speak English we have French as well) are Refugee claimaints that have fled their country in fear of prosecution or death. This is very difficult to prove, takes 2-3 years (if you're in Canada.. it's very unlikely of getting Refugee status from outside) and I'd say they're coming here for a good reason (so long as their stories are true)

tens of thousands of people are mocking the Canadian immigration system because of how difficult it is to come and settle here, so I'm not sure where all of your points are deriving from???!

Back to the White Male discrimination. Toooootally agree. When I know people that are comming here from Ireland, Austria, even Italy they are subject to this because they are not considered a visible minority it's like whaaat?.... It's called White-Men-Need-Not-Apply and seeing that posted for the Toronto and GTA police was wayyy too far! I myself don't even know if I'll stay in Canada, because everyone is so obsessed with being overly Liberal and politically correct when they are in actuality backtracking. I just found it so odd that when this was implemented a few years back that it would have been this way, and not the other way around b/c of the rise of minorities. My bf gets all of his jobs (builder) because he has connections with both italians and greeks (his background) because of his background. I would agree that this is very unfair and is preferntial treatment. My friend has gotten two very well paying jobs because she was Indian. I'm not sure if anyone else has realized this too??? lol I understand it can also apply to 'white' people.. but i've never seen a case of it recently

Sorry sorry sorry Chad ON TOPIC lol : wooo anyone should come to Canada so long as they BRING something to the country, you won't even believeee how many people come and sit on welfare and then send the money back home. (I worked part time for immigration) It wouldnt be nice if everyone could speak some English but what if you wanted to move to another country and they said "sorry, you don't speak italian.. go somewhere else" you know? When i was in my teens i used to think people should leave their culture behind, not wear their hijabs b/c now they're in canada. Now i just realize i'm jealous of the culture these people have, I have no religion and the only culture i have is wearing expensive clothes, dying my hair blonde, and celebrating Christmas/birthdays/Easter.


"I don't understand when people move to a different Country and then proceed to live exactly the way they would in their home land, or the people who constantly talk about how XYZ about their home Country is so much better than Canada. Its like then why did you move here?"

i actually kind of see your point.. i used to always say "then why did you move here" too lol.......but then again I think people in Canada consider people bringing their culture here as part of "Canada" you know? like there is no longer a way to act in Canada, it's kind of like, you do your thing, and even if you're a boy wearing a pink tutu and have tattoos on your face I have to accept you because everyone is equal.......?!?