I think step2health's name is Andrew as well...

lol oops....

If that post wasn't addressed to me I am sorry Sabrina, didn't mean to get so harsh

Let's just look at some facts.

The SRA gave the recent raise to the MSU Execs on June 14, 2008. (SRA 08E, pg 6)

The SRA gave the last raise to the MSU Execs on January 23, 2005. (SRA 04O, pg 9-14)* Note: This document is not available on the MSU website.

That means no raise in 3.5 years.

A CPI raise based on 4 years of Ontario CPI would be worth $2,211 (or a raise of 7.9%) and would translate into a salary of $30,111.

The VP Finance of Ryerson’s Student Union makes around $26,000.

According to the Ontario Employment Standards Act, salaried managers are exempt from hourly wage provisions. If an Executive works harder and longer hours, they are not entitled to more pay.

At the SRA meeting of April 6, 2008 Mr. Finlay brought forward a motion to increase the House Leader’s pay by 244% and the pay of the SRA Sub Committee Commissioners’ by 56%.

At the SRA meeting of June 14, 2008 Mr. Pett (The SRA House Leader) brought forward a motion to increase the VPs’ and President’s pay by 22.4%.

The SRA did not publish their CPI calculations.
The SRA did not publish a table of comparable VP salaries from other Universities.

When Mr. Pett brought the Executive Pay raise forward, he claimed that the executives had not “had a CPI increase in over five years.” Mr. Finlay stated that it was, “four years ago.” There was no amendment to the motion to correct the extra year of CPI.

In the published minutes it actually states:

“Akinwumi – We all came to a consensus at the Finance Committee. There are justifications as to why the wages should be increased. You can come and discuss the reasoning with anyone on the committee.”

So, if you had any concerns with the motion. You can talk to anyone on the committee… after you approve the pay raise. This all happened in the middle of June.


Alex McColl
Hons BComm & Minor in Economics 08
IRC VP Finance 07/08
Undergrad - University Fees Committee 07/08

Why do you keep citing the Ryerson VP Finance pay wage and nothing else?

If we were to follow Ryerson's example we should be also joining the CFS.

I think the major issue with the SRA deciding whether or not to increase the executive pay is that in the future, they're going to be the ones that are running and who want to be appointed to the BoD positions. What a huge conflict of interest.

Originally Posted by AndrewC

lol oops....

If that post wasn't addressed to me I am sorry Sabrina, didn't mean to get so harsh

Sorry Andrew!
Steps2health is also named Andrew, the post was not directed at you at all! I think I'll stick with screen names from now on

...and after reading that post you deleted... wow that was harsh! lol

Ya I am sorry about that. I have been debating with people all week about the presidentials and apathy being as high as it is right now, I was awfully frustrated.

Lol won't happen again.

Originally Posted by deadpool

Why do you keep citing the Ryerson VP Finance pay wage and nothing else?

I keep citing Ryerson because it's one of the only VP salaries that is available.

The only other pay information I can find on the internet is for Nipissing (http://www.nusu.com/download/nusu-bylaw-28Feb08.pdf)

President: $20,000
VPs: $18,000


If, as the SRA claims, the increase was partly to bring the MSU Exec pay more in line with other Ontario Universities then why can they not simply publish their table outlining what those other executives are making? Did the SRA not ask to see this information? Are Ryerson and Nipissing the odd ones out?

If I were the current VP Finance, I would have included myself in the debate. I would have asked to see the CPI calculations and the table of other University Execs and would have made that information public. Then again, I also would have gone with a 7.9% CPI raise since the "extra hours" arguement doesn't really make any sense.

Originally Posted by Alex McColl

I keep citing Ryerson because it's one of the only VP salaries that is available.

The only other pay information I can find on the internet is for Nipissing (http://www.nusu.com/download/nusu-bylaw-28Feb08.pdf)

President: $20,000
VPs: $18,000

If, as the SRA claims, the increase was partly to bring the MSU Exec pay more in line with other Ontario Universities then why can they not simply publish their table outlining what those other executives are making? Did the SRA not ask to see this information? Are Ryerson and Nipissing the odd ones out?

So... you just made the argument that since 3 out of the 19 Ontario schools publish their VP's salaries, that we should set ours in line with the other 2?

Furthermore, we are now going to release information about other school's remunerations and infringe upon those people's rights to keep their salaries hidden even though we have very little vested interest in how much they make?

It was made clear to me that a Commerce graduate currently makes an average starting salary around $42,000. Are you implying that for some reason that the position of an MSU BoD should be paid significantly less than this even though the general nature is that students are giving up one year of their time. As a person who minored in Economics I am sure that you can see the opportunity cost of the position. It explains the lack of quality Commerce students who apply for the VP Finance position.

Furthermore, were you the VP Finance, I am pretty confident to say that you would not do well for relations with other schools as you seem to be wholly interested in outing their own salaries with no notion of professional courtesy.

As for the extra hours argument... of course it makes sense. The situation is that the Board of Directors had been underpaid because in the past 5 years there has been a significant growth in the size of the school, and the number of MSU services. Mr. Finlay has not once argued that his Board deserved the raise over the other boards; simply that it was something that needed to be corrected. To cite precedent on this matter is ridiculous.

From talking to members of the past 3 administrations: they are all in support of the raise even though they did not receive it. It's obvious that someone needed to rectify this.

Mr. Debski made it one of his goal's in the year to work on the HR issues and deal with pay scale issues, and this was a major one: full time employees.

Mr. McColl, there was one candidate in the MSU Election who promised to pay back the salary raise. He got 61 votes. If the students really cared, he definitely would have done better.

In conclusion, I have no idea why you are persisting with this. I unfortunately cannot stand you and am responding to you based on the hope that you stop talking and devaluing the position of VP Finance with your insinuations that you would be one of the best ever. (I base this on the knowledge that Mr. Finlay is reputed to be one of the best in recent memory of many people within McMaster Administration, and the MSU staff.)

Furthermore, we are now going to release information about other school's remunerations and infringe upon those people's rights to keep their salaries hidden even though we have very little vested interest in how much they make?

If those schools unions are publicly traded then the information is public. They have no legal right to keep their salaries hidden.

As for the extra hours argument... of course it makes sense. The situation is that the Board of Directors had been underpaid because in the past 5 years there has been a significant growth in the size of the school, and the number of MSU services.

One could then argue that the services (even though there are more) are being run poorly. When you are a wage rate employee you are paid by the hour, however salaried employees are paid on performance, so one could argue (not to blame Mr. Finlay because as I have stated before he is not to blame for the financial woes of the MSU) but with a deficit, and the lowest voter turnout for an election in at least the last 50 years one could argue that there is no real reason there should have been a pay increase.

To cite precedent on this matter is ridiculous.

To cite precedence is very important. This decision was made, and came into effect with the current BoD (as most bylaws and policies take effect the following year). The fact it is an operating policy and not a bylaw, and it can be changed so easily is poor precedence.

I am not agreeing with Alex, nor am I criticizing the BoD for the raises they received, however I criticize the common attacks back and forth. The comparisons on both sides are horrible. Alex cited Ryersons executives, a very different school, Rohan cited and opening salary for a commerce grad, but the VP Finance does not require a commerce degree. Let's get some fact straight. The BoD are not conspiring to steal money from the student body and the pay increase is only marginally due to CPI. The finance committee, decided that VP's have more work and thus deserve more pay, that is it.

What bothers me, is not the pay increase nor the arguments for and against but instead the lack of arguments. The motion, to change the bylaw, was spoken on by 4 people, one being Mr. Finlay for simple clarification. In addition, I cannot find data that was presented showing an increase in wage, just an amendment to increase the hours worked (to 40). Unless the actual amount of pay is reflected in another meeting, this seems incomplete to me and I don't see this motion as done properly. But the fact that there was such little discussion, and that this passed so easily, is frightening to me. I am getting this from June 14th, if there was more than someone, please show me.

Originally Posted by deadpool

So... you just made the argument that since 3 out of the 19 Ontario schools publish their VP's salaries, that we should set ours in line with the other 2?

I made no such argument. In fact, based on my perusal of other University Student Union web sites, the salaries of the VPs and Presidents are discussed at open meetings but are not necessarily published on the internet. All politicians across Canada have salaries that are public information. Student politicians shouldn’t be any different. Moreover, I simply asked if Ryerson and Nipissing were the odd ones out. If the SRA truly did a comparison with other schools, it’s only reasonable to ask to see those other wages.

Originally Posted by deadpool

Furthermore, we are now going to release information about other school's remunerations and infringe upon those people's rights to keep their salaries hidden even though we have very little vested interest in how much they make?

Furthermore, were you the VP Finance, I am pretty confident to say that you would not do well for relations with other schools as you seem to be wholly interested in outing their own salaries with no notion of professional courtesy.

I’ve made it public knowledge that I would have supported no more than a CPI increase. I would have never asked what the other school VPs make since it isn’t an issue when looking at inflation.

Originally Posted by deadpool

It was made clear to me that a Commerce graduate currently makes an average starting salary around $42,000. Are you implying that for some reason that the position of an MSU BoD should be paid significantly less than this even though the general nature is that students are giving up one year of their time. As a person who minored in Economics I am sure that you can see the opportunity cost of the position. It explains the lack of quality Commerce students who apply for the VP Finance position.

Not only am I going to take this as a personal insult, but I’m also going to point out how you’ve insulted Steve Wilkinson. In the MSU VP Finance election, I was not the only Commerce Student (although I was the only graduating Commerce student). Steve Wilkinson ran a very well informed campaign. He pointed out that Quarters was in dire straits and heading into even more financial woes, something that Mr. Finlay argued was inaccurate. He is set to graduate this year and is pursuing a Professional Accounting Certification. In addition to this he worked in the MSU Accounting Department part time. I worked with Steve in 4th year Business to Business Marketing and he would have made an excellent VP Finance. I wish him the best of luck in finding one of those $42,000+ / year jobs you mentioned. In the end, the SRA choose to elect a 3rd year Political Science Major instead. Perhaps it is the attitude and culture of the SRA/MSU that turns Commerce Students away… or at least, fails to elect them.

I agree with Andrew in that this sets bad precedence. The point I’ve been trying to make is that all these “reasons” have been given but there has been nothing substantial that comes with them. The fact that it happened in the summer, with little debate, and no documentation is troubling. Moreover, since the motion was made to include a 5 year CPI increase, which Mr. Finlay pointed out was wrong, but then no one bothered to alter the motion to reflect the fact that the raise included an extra year worth of inflation is very disconcerting. It reflects very poorly on the SRA. Were they simply not paying attention? Were they too lazy? Was Mr. Pett returning the favour for the raise Mr. Finlay helped Mr. Pett give himself a few months before? These are all questions that students couldn’t ask, because the debate happened in the middle of June.

As a side note:

I found it interesting that after posting so much about their commitment to Transparency and Accountability that both Mr. Finlay and Mr. McIntyre would say “Thank You” to Lorend for posting, “transparency and accountability are the lamest buzz words ever.”

http://www.macinsiders.com/showthread.php?t=2063 6

UGH!... sigh...

just breathe temara haha

Originally Posted by Alex McColl

I found it interesting that after posting so much about their commitment to Transparency and Accountability that both Mr. Finlay and Mr. McIntyre would say “Thank You” to Lorend for posting, “transparency and accountability are the lamest buzz words ever.”

http://www.macinsiders.com/showthread.php?t=2063 6

Maybe because they found it entertaining as I did.