You never had to know how to compile code or know the system architecture to do anything basic.

Try Linux. Most people are not using it for the same exact reason.

Originally Posted by Andrew A

The base model MBP is, what, $1250? That's really $1000 more than both of your computers combined? Or are you specifically looking at the very most factory upgraded MacBook available? That's not a fair way to assess the price of a MacBook, seeing as most people who buy a MacBook don't buy the 15" Retina with every possible factory upgrade for $5000 or whatever the prices comes out to be.

As for the iPhone: an unlocked 32GB iPhone 5 is $800. My unlocked international version HTC One X (32GB internal memory and no expandable storage, I chose the 32GB iPhone to be the most comparable to my phone in this regard) was $640 at the time I purchased it. The iPhone 5 also has 4G LTE and my phone does not. It also has apparently better battery life. Most of the other differences between the phones are hard to decisively say are better on one or the other - of course my own preference is toward the One X, but for most of the market, I would say that the iPhone 5 is indeed a better phone, and probably worth the extra $160. If you're signing a 2 or 3 year term contact for the phones, there probably isn't even a price difference between the iPhone 5 and the One X or S3, or perhaps a difference of $10 or $20, which is really not worth arguing over. If you can afford to pay for a smartphone plan for three years, a $10 price difference up front is nothing.

I actually looked at the MBP cause I was curious, and if you were to get the base model it has slightly better specs then my 2 yr old, $500 laptop with 4 hours battery life without trying to conserve it. So yes, I think my statement does still stand they are overpriced and the basic one is almost the cost of my 2 computers.

The Iphone I have a lot less issues with than the computers. I still think it is overpriced and you can get more for less money with a high end Android, I found the Iphones to have near 0 issues while the Androids have the odd one.

Originally Posted by AngryBean

You never had to know how to compile code or know the system architecture to do anything basic.

Try Linux. Most people are not using it for the same exact reason.

Have you tried Linux yourself? Unless you're purposefully using a distro that is intended for Linux enthusiasts, it's really not at all hard to use. Opening a terminal is no more necessary than using command prompt in Windows. Ubuntu, Linux Mint, and Fedora are all major distributions which do not require any real knowledge of the underlying system to use. Maybe if by "Linux" you mean "Arch" or "CrunchBang" then yes, you can say that you need to know how to use a compiler to effectively use the OS.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I actually looked at the MBP cause I was curious, and if you were to get the base model it has slightly better specs then my 2 yr old, $500 laptop with 4 hours battery life without trying to conserve it. So yes, I think my statement does still stand they are overpriced and the basic one is almost the cost of my 2 computers.

The Iphone I have a lot less issues with than the computers. I still think it is overpriced and you can get more for less money with a high end Android, I found the Iphones to have near 0 issues while the Androids have the odd one.

You claimed that a MacBook was $1000 more than both of your computers combined, not that it costs almost as much as your two computers.

I'm not saying MacBooks aren't priced higher than other PCs with comparable CPUs, GPUs, amount of RAM, size of HDD, etc. I am saying that you grossly exaggerated the price of a MacBook in your earlier post.

EDIT: Mods, please feel free to merge my posts, assuming that's a capability you have... I keep replying to posts and then deciding to reply to more, and I'm apparently too tired to remember to just edit the previous post and append my later responses :/.

Originally Posted by Andrew A

You claimed that a MacBook was $1000 more than both of your computers combined, not that it costs almost as much as your two computers.

I'm not saying MacBooks aren't priced higher than other PCs with comparable CPUs, GPUs, amount of RAM, size of HDD, etc. I am saying that you grossly exaggerated the price of a MacBook in your earlier post.

EDIT: Mods, please feel free to merge my posts, assuming that's a capability you have... I keep replying to posts and then deciding to reply to more, and I'm apparently too tired to remember to just edit the previous post and append my later responses :/.

Most people I have met had the $2000+ versions which is why I never understood the point of that, but I didn't realize many people had the cheaper ones.

Originally Posted by Andrew A

Have you tried Linux yourself? Unless you're purposefully using a distro that is intended for Linux enthusiasts, it's really not at all hard to use. Opening a terminal is no more necessary than using command prompt in Windows. Ubuntu, Linux Mint, and Fedora are all major distributions which do not require any real knowledge of the underlying system to use. Maybe if by "Linux" you mean "Arch" or "CrunchBang" then yes, you can say that you need to know how to use a compiler to effectively use the OS.

No I am talking about Ubuntu. And yeah it is easy to use, if a package is provided. If its not, you are screwed, your best bet is to download source code and unless you know whats going on you done after that step.

Well it's difficult to compare the price of a MacBook to a gaming desktop, just like it's hard to compare the price of any other laptop to the price of a desktop. You'll always be able to get more powerful hardware for the same amount of money when you're dealing with a desktop computer.

However, I do agree that MacBooks are overpriced in general, at least for the raw specs you're getting with them. It's hard to put a price on other qualities they possess, such as the touchpad, which I think is definitely superior to any I've ever seen on another laptop, or that MacBooks tend to be thinner than most other competitors with similar specs, or usually last longer on battery than any competitors that manage to pack similar specs in a similar thickness.

Many other laptops also don't have the same build quality as a MacBook - sure, it doesn't make it perform any better to be built from a single piece of milled 6061 aluminum, but that still adds to how much it costs to manufacture a MacBook I'm sure. It's hard to imagine that that doesn't cost more than some moulded plastic panels and a handful of screws. Many other laptops also don't have backlit keyboards, which is again, a simple feature, which does not add any raw performance, but it's still nice to have. I also find the MacBook keyboards to feel very nice to type on, and I'm sure most people who buy MacBooks feel the same way, and that's worth a lot to me. The only other laptop line I've ever typed on which I thought felt equally as nice or better than my MacBook is the ThinkPad - the recently replaced classic Thinkpad keyboard was incredible and just felt amazing to type on. I personally find the MacBook Pro keyboard to be second only to that out of all of the laptops I've typed on. That's just a personal opinion of course, and it does not have anything to do with raw performance, but is a nice feature that I am willing to pay money for. Same goes for a slot loading optical drive rather than a tray.

So yes, MacBooks do definitely have a worse performance per dollar ratio than a lot of other notebooks out there, but they also happen to be usually more portable and more comfortable. In fact, it seems to me that most laptops that have the same CPU/GPU/RAM/HDD as an $1800 Mac, but also have large, precise trackpads, slot loading optical drives, backlit and good feeling keyboards, and thin form factors while retaining good battery life, also tend to cost around the same amount as that $1800 MacBook. If it has the same CPU/GPU/RAM/HDD and costs $600, it probably has a tray loading drive, is thicker than a MacBook by a noticeable amount, doesn't have a backlit keyboard, has a small, non-multitouch, imprecise trackpad, low quality keyboard feel etc.

EDIT: I remembered this time

Originally Posted by AngryBean

No I am talking about Ubuntu. And yeah it is easy to use, if a package is provided. If its not, you are screwed, your best bet is to download source code and unless you know whats going on you done after that step.

For most people, using a computer basically comes down to using a word processor of some kind, and a browser. Those are all definitely available in the Ubuntu software manager. I don't know specifically what kind of software you're talking about, but the worst I've ever had to do for software in Linux Mint was download a tarball of source code, which actually even contained its own makefile and instructions on how to manually install the software the way you'd expect a package manager to do it for you. I don't remember what software that was but I'm sure it wasn't something that most people would ever find themselves in need of. What exactly do you call "anything basic" when it comes to using a computer? I would define that as using, for example, MS Word and Google Chrome on a daily basis, and not much more than that. That is definitely easily achievable using whatever Ubuntu calls its software manager GUI. Even if you need a programming IDE, hard drive partitioning utility, or video transcoder, you can still find those pretty easily as ready-to-install packages.

Sorry for not knowing the name of the Ubuntu "app store," I use Mint rather than Ubuntu, and pretty much always install packages using apt-get (in Mint, it's also just "apt"), or at worst, downloading the .deb and "dpkg -i"ing it .

Originally Posted by Snowman

Most people I have met had the $2000+ versions which is why I never understood the point of that, but I didn't realize many people had the cheaper ones.

I don't know where you're living, but 90% of all the MacBooks I see on campus are the 13" ones, of which the highest end one is priced at $1,429.00

Originally Posted by Andrew A

Well it's difficult to compare the price of a MacBook to a gaming desktop, just like it's hard to compare the price of any other laptop to the price of a desktop. You'll always be able to get more powerful hardware for the same amount of money when you're dealing with a desktop computer.

However, I do agree that MacBooks are overpriced in general, at least for the raw specs you're getting with them. It's hard to put a price on other qualities they possess, such as the touchpad, which I think is definitely superior to any I've ever seen on another laptop, or that MacBooks tend to be thinner than most other competitors with similar specs, or usually last longer on battery than any competitors that manage to pack similar specs in a similar thickness.

Many other laptops also don't have the same build quality as a MacBook - sure, it doesn't make it perform any better to be built from a single piece of milled 6061 aluminum, but that still adds to how much it costs to manufacture a MacBook I'm sure. It's hard to imagine that that doesn't cost more than some moulded plastic panels and a handful of screws. Many other laptops also don't have backlit keyboards, which is again, a simple feature, which does not add any raw performance, but it's still nice to have. I also find the MacBook keyboards to feel very nice to type on, and I'm sure most people who buy MacBooks feel the same way, and that's worth a lot to me. The only other laptop line I've ever typed on which I thought felt equally as nice or better than my MacBook is the ThinkPad - the recently replaced classic Thinkpad keyboard was incredible and just felt amazing to type on. I personally find the MacBook Pro keyboard to be second only to that out of all of the laptops I've typed on. That's just a personal opinion of course, and it does not have anything to do with raw performance, but is a nice feature that I am willing to pay money for. Same goes for a slot loading optical drive rather than a tray.

So yes, MacBooks do definitely have a worse performance per dollar ratio than a lot of other notebooks out there, but they also happen to be usually more portable and more comfortable. In fact, it seems to me that most laptops that have the same CPU/GPU/RAM/HDD as an $1800 Mac, but also have large, precise trackpads, slot loading optical drives, backlit and good feeling keyboards, and thin form factors while retaining good battery life, also tend to cost around the same amount as that $1800 MacBook. If it has the same CPU/GPU/RAM/HDD and costs $600, it probably has a tray loading drive, is thicker than a MacBook by a noticeable amount, doesn't have a backlit keyboard, has a small, non-multitouch, imprecise trackpad, low quality keyboard feel etc.

What's the difference between the apple touchpad and the multi touchpads on other laptops? I'm just curious as I've never used Apple touchpads for lengths of time and it's been a long time since the last time I used one so I can't really compare them right now.

Also, in my opinion, 1200$ is a ridiculous price for a backlit keyboard (I've never encountered a scenario when I wish I had a backlit keyboard), slightly thinner/lighter (Personally 1 extra pound isn't that much more to carry), and a "better feeling" keyboard (As long as I can type with good speed and accuracy without my hands/fingers aching after a couple hours then I don't really care about the feel of the keyboard which you eventually get used to and don't even notice anymore).

Originally Posted by Yogurt

I don't know where you're living, but 90% of all the MacBooks I see on campus are the 13" ones, of which the highest end one is priced at $1,429.00

Most of the people I know who had MBPs had the 15" ones... but I think they were 1800$.

Boy you are one crazy apple fanboy, arent you?

You actually would pay almost a grand more (air to other ultrabooks) just to have your laptop being made out of solid piece of aluminum? I mean sure it looks nice. But I for one think it has its now disadvantages, like if you load your system to the limit, the case gets hot. Also how does it help in terms of functionality? If you drop your 2500 MacBook Pro on the asphalt, it will be destroyed, just like a 1600 laptop of the same functionality made out of plastic. So yeah, its not all fun and giggles with solid aluminum cases.

.... Man, I remember watching a TV show back in the day, around 2003-5 when I was living overseas, I think it was on TechTV that I don't think exists now. Basically they had a special where they compared Mac desktop to a PC of the same price. Basically PC won, by killing it in performace, but Mac was better in terms of ease of use (no OS installation, the PC wasn't a brand build just a bunch of parts). Now I don't remember what the rest of the tests were, except the last one, when they dropped both desktops from a bridge. In case of a PC they totally trashed the motherboard, otherwise it was fine, they just went to the store and replaced it. With a Mac they just got someone on the support line laughing at them when they explained what happened to it, and later they basically had to get a new one.

... I looked all over the web, couldn't find the video, too bad, would be fun to use it here almost 10 years later.

Originally Posted by jhan523

What's the difference between the apple touchpad and the multi touchpads on other laptops? I'm just curious as I've never used Apple touchpads for lengths of time and it's been a long time since the last time I used one so I can't really compare them right now.

Also, in my opinion, 1200$ is a ridiculous price for a backlit keyboard (I've never encountered a scenario when I wish I had a backlit keyboard), slightly thinner/lighter (Personally 1 extra pound isn't that much more to carry), and a "better feeling" keyboard (As long as I can type with good speed and accuracy without my hands/fingers aching after a couple hours then I don't really care about the feel of the keyboard which you eventually get used to and don't even notice anymore).

It's not something you can really explain. You have to use one to understand, but I also agree, and it's something you would find on almost any Apple portable review—Apple touchpads are unrivalled. No one came close to getting the form and function (behaviour) of it, so far. It's huge and gets the texture and friction perfectly, and paired with OS X, it gets mouse speed and acceleration so, so right. If I had to describe it, I'd say it's natural. You're never cramped for space, things move on screen exactly how you'd expect them to move, and gestures are wonderful. With two fingers for secondary click, you never have to take your finger off the trackpad, and your workflow is quicker and more fluent. QoL improvements make a huge difference.

The keyboard isn't that amazing, and the backlighting I could have done without, but often times I find it very useful. Together with build quality, I think they're worth $200 on top of the base price. That said, MacBooks (or at least, MacBook Pro's) are overpriced compared to the competition. The latest update makes the price much more "justifiable", and the Air is ahead of the game in it's category, but yes, they cost more. I think Apple would make a ton more money if they just dropped one price tier, with a portable in the $700-$800 range.

Originally Posted by Yogurt

It's not something you can really explain. You have to use one to understand, but I also agree, and it's something you would find on almost any Apple portable review—Apple touchpads are unrivalled. No one came close to getting the form and function (behaviour) of it, so far. It's huge and gets the texture and friction perfectly, and paired with OS X, it gets mouse speed and acceleration so, so right. If I had to describe it, I'd say it's natural. You're never cramped for space, things move on screen exactly how you'd expect them to move, and gestures are wonderful. With two fingers for secondary click, you never have to take your finger off the trackpad, and your workflow is quicker and more fluent. QoL improvements make a huge difference.

The keyboard isn't that amazing, and the backlighting I could have done without, but often times I find it very useful. Together with build quality, I think they're worth $200 on top of the base price. That said, MacBooks (or at least, MacBook Pro's) are overpriced compared to the competition. The latest update makes the price much more "justifiable", and the Air is ahead of the game in it's category, but yes, they cost more. I think Apple would make a ton more money if they just dropped one price tier, with a portable in the $700-$800 range.

Ah true, I forgot about texture/friction of the touchpad. I'll have to try the apple touchpad again one day, or maybe I shouldn't since I'm so happy with my touchpad right now XD Well, almost... the only complaint I have is the size of the touchpad. They could have definitely made it smaller, but I suppose a lot of people like low speed. But I always have the touchpad set to the highest sensitivity so I don't end up using all of the touchpad. In reality I don't really care since the touchpad comes with "smart detector" preventing unwanted clicks when typing but I think having a small touchpad would have also made the laptop look a bit nicer. The touchpad just looks huge >.>

Originally Posted by AngryBean

Boy you are one crazy apple fanboy, arent you?

You actually would pay almost a grand more (air to other ultrabooks) just to have your laptop being made out of solid piece of aluminum? I mean sure it looks nice. But I for one think it has its now disadvantages, like if you load your system to the limit, the case gets hot. Also how does it help in terms of functionality? If you drop your 2500 MacBook Pro on the asphalt, it will be destroyed, just like a 1600 laptop of the same functionality made out of plastic. So yeah, its not all fun and giggles with solid aluminum cases.

.... Man, I remember watching a TV show back in the day, around 2003-5 when I was living overseas, I think it was on TechTV that I don't think exists now. Basically they had a special where they compared Mac desktop to a PC of the same price. Basically PC won, by killing it in performace, but Mac was better in terms of ease of use (no OS installation, the PC wasn't a brand build just a bunch of parts). Now I don't remember what the rest of the tests were, except the last one, when they dropped both desktops from a bridge. In case of a PC they totally trashed the motherboard, otherwise it was fine, they just went to the store and replaced it. With a Mac they just got someone on the support line laughing at them when they explained what happened to it, and later they basically had to get a new one.

... I looked all over the web, couldn't find the video, too bad, would be fun to use it here almost 10 years later.

Really, almost $1000 more for a MacBook Air? The base model 13" Air is $1230. I would really like to know where to buy a $230 Ultrabook! Even the highest tier Air is $1530 before any factory upgrades... again, where do you find a $530 Ultrabook competitor to the Air?

Did I not say several times that all those features were not adding functionality or performance? And now you want me to justify how it adds functionality? Seriously, read the post before you respond.

Who ever said my MacBook Pro cost $2500? I have a 2009 base model 13" which was $1200 at the time of purchase.

Which computers do you know of which do not produce heat when "loaded to the limit?"

Finally, how am I being a "crazy fanboy?" I never claimed that the MacBook Pros were any better than their competition. I even pointed out and explicitly stated that they perform worse for the same price. I really do not believe you read my post, or if you did, that you understood it.

Multitouch? I hate touch pads in general, can't wait to plug my wireless mouse in

Macbooks would be almost just as aweful in terms of overall errors, and virus susceptibility if they were made in the 'random' fashion as PCs. Apple is basically putting all their RnD and effort into one single type of concept (or product), whereas in the PC market, there's a billion different brands, shapes, sizes, features available. Apple seems to me like easy mode for product development and maintainace ... just focus on one type of technology, kind of hard to run into any inefficiencies in quality assurance if there's no major variation among your products. Windows is a hodgepodge stuff. Android/Windows/etc run into the 'reinventing the wheel' issue a LOT.

I wonder if there's (or will be) a PC company that pretty much controls the whole production of the computer/laptop the way Apple does? (OS, hardware and branding)

Originally Posted by Andrew A

Flash support has been dropped as of Jelly Bean, so it's only barely valid to argue that Android has Flash support. I've never even used it on my One X.

I was just wondering if was included in the iPhone 5. Not trying to make arguments.

Originally Posted by Andrew A

I would add iMessage to the iPhone side, for example. Perhaps also features like iCloud syncing and backup, wireless syncing with iTunes, camera performance.

iMessage looks like BBM from what I can tell, everything else doesn't really appeal to me but I guess they're good features. I don't think I've ever updated any of my phones....

Originally Posted by RyanC

Multitouch? I hate touch pads in general, can't wait to plug my wireless mouse in

Macbooks would be almost just as aweful in terms of overall errors, and virus susceptibility if they were made in the 'random' fashion as PCs. Apple is basically putting all their RnD and effort into one single type of concept (or product), whereas in the PC market, there's a billion different brands, shapes, sizes, features available. Apple seems to me like easy mode for product development and maintainace ... just focus on one type of technology, kind of hard to run into any inefficiencies in quality assurance if there's no major variation among your products. Windows is a hodgepodge stuff.

I wonder if there's (or will be) a PC company that pretty much controls the whole production of the computer/laptop the way Apple does? (OS, hardware and branding)



I was just wondering if was included in the iPhone 5. Not trying to make arguments.

iMessage looks like BBM from what I can tell, everything else doesn't really appeal to me but I guess they're good features. I don't think I've ever updated any of my phones....

There are very few touchpads I've used which I think are even really useable in general, the best of which is definitely the Apple one. I won't bother trying to explain what I like about it, it just feels natural to me to use. In general I do prefer mice, and I have a decent bluetooth mouse that I bought for my laptop, but I only ever use it for games (which is very rare, I've never been too big on PC gaming, I'd prefer to play on my Xbox ).

Anyway, nope, the iPhone 5 doesn't have Flash support, just like every other iOS device ever .

iMessage is indeed similar to BBM, however it's integrated into the SMS texting app, rather than being a separate entity. I think that's a pretty valid feature in an iPhone 5 vs GS3 comparison, but of course Samsung didn't mention it in their ad. Like I said, those features I listed are debatably advantageous, but they do exist, and obviously would appeal to a sizeable portion of the market if Apple decided to include them in the iPhone 5. It's not like iPhones are known for including a large number of obscure features... lol.

EDIT: As for a PC company doing the whole "vertical integration of OS/hardware/branding" thing... well, MS with Windows 8 Surface tablets basically fits that bill, no?