Originally Posted by Lois

allanandthera - High school exams are insignificant compared to a PhD workload. Losing a loved one is something absolutely terrible and gut wrenching, but it's not the same as a concussion (traumatic brain injury). Unfortunately with a lot of head injuries as the physical illness isn't something acutely visible, people get a lot less sympathy than say a cast or something that is obviously external. His brain - which is responsible for memory, processing information, and all executive level cognitive functioning - has been injured. With these types of injuries of you try to do things before you are ready, it simply makes the illness more prolonged. Until you've had a concussion many of you don't know how hard it really is. :|

The question isn't the comparison of workload from High School versus the workload of a University. The main question is whether an institution of education will be able to maintain the integrity of their academic marking scheme. I fully support McMaster on this one because I think it undermines what a degree is if the rules can be bent. There are thousands upon thousands of people who have injuries of any sort, if McMaster doesn't uphold their integrity, others will follow Tang's suit. Furthermore, why is he suing the University for some self inflicted injuries? The University never told him to play sports. It's much like an Olympian that tripped hurt himself and then sued the Olympics for not giving him a medal.

The University gave him accommodation according to their rules and regulations, they must uphold their integrity, it is unfair to give accommodation on a case by case basis because there is no standard to mark them upon. You are mixing sympathy into judgement, which is wrong. Personally, I feel sorry for the dude because he hurt himself and it made him unable to do his degree like he could have. However, just because he was hurt does not entitle him to a PhD degree, because it undermines what a PhD at an institution of higher education represents.

Originally Posted by allanandthera

The question isn't the comparison of workload from High School versus the workload of a University. The main question is whether an institution of education will be able to maintain the integrity of their academic marking scheme. I fully support McMaster on this one because I think it undermines what a degree is if the rules can be bent. There are thousands upon thousands of people who have injuries of any sort, if McMaster doesn't uphold their integrity, others will follow Tang's suit. Furthermore, why is he suing the University for some self inflicted injuries? The University never told him to play sports. It's much like an Olympian that tripped hurt himself and then sued the Olympics for not giving him a medal.

The University gave him accommodation according to their rules and regulations, they must uphold their integrity, it is unfair to give accommodation on a case by case basis because there is no standard to mark them upon. You are mixing sympathy into judgement, which is wrong. Personally, I feel sorry for the dude because he hurt himself and it made him unable to do his degree like he could have. However, just because he was hurt does not entitle him to a PhD degree, because it undermines what a PhD at an institution of higher education represents.

Actually, university regulations STATE that accommodations must be made on a case-by-case basis because each disability is different and affects the person differently.

And I think the point was that there is no comparison between your situation (high school exams and a death in the family) with Tang's (injury/disability and PhD comps). Even so, I think one of the barriers to people with disabilities getting accommodations is people who feel like they got the short end of the stick by following the rules and toughed it out so why should someone else get special treatment? It inherently feels unfair, even if it isn't actually - one person isn't capable of experiencing what things are actually like for another person.

Unless we know what accommodations Tang requested, there's no way to judge. Based on the information we do have, though, I don't think he has a case (of course that could all change really quickly if it turns out he requested and was denied reasonable accommodations). The bottom line is that there is a very high standard for earning a PhD, the highest standard possible, and any student who is granted this degree must clearly show that they have mastered the requirements. If a student is unable to do this, EVEN if they are unable to do so because of a disability, they can't earn the degree - university regulations state this as well.

Accommodations can only do so much, and must not be used to excuse students from certain key components of their program requirements. Not everyone is capable of PhD level work. And this student may well have been capable before his accident, and that's got to be really frustrating for him, but the bottom line is that shit happens in life that changes us and changes the course of our lives. What if he was a phys ed major who got into a car accident and became a quadriplegic?

Does anyone know what came of the hearing today?

Originally Posted by starfish

And I think the point was that there is no comparison between your situation (high school exams and a death in the family) with Tang's (injury/disability and PhD comps). Even so, I think one of the barriers to people with disabilities getting accommodations is people who feel like they got the short end of the stick by following the rules and toughed it out so why should someone else get special treatment? It inherently feels unfair, even if it isn't actually - one person isn't capable of experiencing what things are actually like for another person.

I disagree with you, I think a personal death is comparable to that of a disability. I was just able to rough it out, but to many, it can make them lose confidence in studying. Imagine the mental stress and psychological damages it will cause to the student. From personal experiences I can tell you that after a student takes care of a person that has a long death process, it can cause irreparable changes to the emotions and character of the student. A parental death definitely can impair a student's ability to perform academically. To you , a death is just a death, but to a person with a parental death; it is a life changing nightmare that will never end. The wound will heal but the scars won't fade. In my case, we were immigrants that had only a sole income, it poses many other serious problems financially too. Much alike any injury, every situation is different, the damages are more silent and unappreciated than physical injuries.

Beyond that, I'm pretty sure we all agree on one thing: the University must uphold their academic integrity. Let's see how to trial goes.

Originally Posted by allanandthera

I disagree with you, I think a personal death is comparable to that of a disability. I was just able to rough it out, but to many, it can make them lose confidence in studying. Imagine the mental stress and psychological damages it will cause to the student. From personal experiences I can tell you that after a student takes care of a person that has a long death process, it can cause irreparable changes to the emotions and character of the student. A parental death definitely can impair a student's ability to perform academically. To you , a death is just a death, but to a person with a parental death; it is a life changing nightmare that will never end. The wound will heal but the scars won't fade. In my case, we were immigrants that had only a sole income, it poses many other serious problems financially too. Much alike any injury, every situation is different, the damages are more silent and unappreciated than physical injuries.

Beyond that, I'm pretty sure we all agree on one thing: the University must uphold their academic integrity. Let's see how to trial goes.

The accommodations that should be put in place for a student dealing with a death in the family are very different from those necessary for a disability. There's a difference between psychological and physical problems, for one thing. Also, with many disabilities (including TBI) they can be permanent, impairing the individual's ability to perform for the rest of their lives - although a family member dying is also permanent (obviously), if it impairs you from properly functioning for the rest of your life then that is definite cause for concern. In Tang's case, for example, if he had experienced a death or something similar, he could have taken a leave of absence and then that's that. In his case, a leave of absence didn't help, because it's looking like his disability is going to be of a more permanent nature. The way of dealing with the two (from an administrative standpoint) is very different. Also, people tend to be much more understanding of family deaths because they're more familiar. Everyone has lost someone; not everyone has had a TBI. In addition, since grief is not considered a disability, it doesn't fall under the same legal umbrella as TBI - the school isn't actually legally required to make accommodations. When they do, it's usually on a compassionate basis.

On that note, I don't need to imagine the psychological stress of a long death process, taking care of a dying loved one, or losing someone close to me. You're not the only one who has experienced it.

Actually, the bereavement clause was removed from DSM-5... so if grief = symptoms of depression = diagnosis of depression = disability = accommodations(?)

I don't actually know if depression counts as a disability to be accounted for in this context. Just throwing it out there.

Originally Posted by Kudos

Actually, the bereavement clause was removed from DSM-5... so if grief = symptoms of depression = diagnosis of depression = disability = accommodations(?)

I don't actually know if depression counts as a disability to be accounted for in this context. Just throwing it out there.

DSM 5 isn't out yet though, is it?

And anyways, they do differentiate between temporary disability (eg broken arm) and permanent disability.

It came out in May. Your point is well taken, though!