always fun to watch engineers dig themselves a deeper hole

Originally Posted by WillyH

Yes yes, I'm well aware that there are more than enough white knights out there to protect every single maiden against any sort of insult, whether real or fictional. This situation is a complete joke, a cherished student organization is getting gutted for a piece of literature that is only loosely tied to the current state of the group?
I'd even be understanding if it actually promoted negative treatment of female engineers, but any engineer can tell you that women are basically worshiped in the faculty, that any girl can almost be guaranteed to be treated favourably by her peers on the sole merit of possessing a birth canal.

Unfortunately, the songbook doesn't show that part of engineering. It's also a bit of a sexist attitude (the worshipping of female engineers), but certainly less harmful than what some of those lyrics advocate. I think the point the administrators are trying to make is that it doesn't matter what else you do; nothing makes up for chanting songs that advocate rape and a bunch of other awful things. They don't even have evidence that the song isn't sung, so based on the songbook they have to assume that it is.

I wasn't implying that female engineers should be mistreated. But at the same time male engineers are under no obligation to ignore the fact that women generally dislike the field and if one claims otherwise and wants to be treated like one of the guys then the burden of proof is on them. It's like a skinny guy saying that he can lift 300 pounds, it' not impossible but you rarely see it happen.
And before you come screeching that women love engineering just as much as men, can you please explain to me how even though there are 9% more female than male undergraduate students at mcmaster, that you would only see a few of them in an engineering classroom?

I completely disagree that women "generally dislike the field". Low enrollment rates of women in engineering are due to a myriad of reasons. Just because I didn't choose to study English, for example, that doesn't mean I dislike the field of English and look down on all English majors and make fun of them. Enrollment rates isn't a good indicator of how much a group "likes" a field.

And why do you assume that women in engineering come in and want to be treated as "one of the guys"? Wanting to be treated equally isn't the same as wanting to be treated as if you're a guy. That idea implies that something is inherently better about being a man compared to a woman. You can treat a woman with respect and also not pretend that she's a guy. And again, the burden of proof is NOT on the minority to prove that they should be treated equally. A skinny guy being able to life 300lbs has absolutely nothing to do with this. The right to lift 300lbs is nonexistent; the right to an education in an environment free of sexual harassment is the law.


The songbook was made all in good fun with no intent to harm anyone - of that I am reasonably certain. But that doesn't make it any better - in fact, in some ways it makes it worse, and continually defending the songbook and saying that its existence is a good thing that contributes to the engineering community means that you're totally missing the point of why people are against it in the first place.

It does seem extremely harsh to ban all redsuits, particularly because the students who make the book have already graduated. But, the current redsuits propagated it year after year, which makes them just as guilty in the eyes of the administration. And after all of the news this past WW of crude chants on university campuses (that aren't NEARLY as bad as the S&M song), it was shaping up to be a public image nightmare if it got out that this songbook existed and the school knew about it and did nothing. That's why the punishment is so harsh.

Couldn't this have been handled, y'know, quietly? I'm a little embarrassed to see it hit Salon.

The student union “supports the University’s decision to uphold the environment of inclusivity, diversity and respect that student of the institution expect,” MSU President David Campbell said in the statement.

“Given the available information, the move to immediately suspend any and all Redsuit [activities]… is both prudent and necessary.”




Good to see your Union strongly supports student groups and is willing to stand up to the university administration. What a strong proud union!

would love to see how engineers would react to their supposed supporter dropping them oh so fast, especially considering how much you pay to be part of the MSU - and you get shit on like that. They'll do something right? or just take it?

grover stahp

This is the best thing that has happened to McMaster Engineering in a long time!

Man, on faculty night in my first year, I was feeling so awkward and offended when they were singing the coksucker song in bus, I was wondering why did I come to this university and this faculty...

These songs are not in good fun; they can be quite negatively influential on first years. They can distract incoming enthusiastic and studious students into thinking engineering is all about alcohol, sex and "having fun" as opposed to becoming able and confident engineers. That's actually how a lot of students drop out in first year.

Hello chad!

how post as not just a thumbnail?

I completely disagree that women "generally dislike the field". Low enrollment rates of women in engineering are due to a myriad of reasons. Just because I didn't choose to study English, for example, that doesn't mean I dislike the field of English and look down on all English majors and make fun of them. Enrollment rates isn't a good indicator of how much a group "likes" a field.

If you don't care enough about a video game to actually play it, then why should I consider your opinion about the game? If someone loves engineering and the things associated with it but never actually goes through the experience, then at best I'm going to be valuing their opinion on matters regarding engineering less so than that of actual engineers, and at worst completely ignoring the input.

And why do you assume that women in engineering come in and want to be treated as "one of the guys"? Wanting to be treated equally isn't the same as wanting to be treated as if you're a guy. You can treat a woman with respect and also not pretend that she's a guy.

If they don't want to be treated as one of the guys then that's great, but if you aren't my friend then why would I value your opinion as much as that of my friend? Men undeniably have many inherently similar experiences that bond them, same for women, why ignore this?

That idea implies that something is inherently better about being a man compared to a woman.

There is nothing better about being a man or a woman, but I'm going to relate more to a guy who has faced similar challenges and victories as me, than to a girl who's life I know little about.

And again, the burden of proof is NOT on the minority to prove that they should be treated equally.

Who is treating someone unequally? I'm all for equality of opportunity, you can go in to engineering regardless of gender and be able to prove yourself, equality of outcome on the other hand is a myth. No one would treat a guy who seems like he does his work with the same attitude as a slacker. Women and men both have the opportunity to prove that they can be capable engineers, males just have been doing it at mcmaster for 50 years longer and hence have an easier job in that regard.

A skinny guy being able to life 300lbs has absolutely nothing to do with this. The right to lift 300lbs is nonexistent; the right to an education in an environment free of sexual harassment is the law.

And they are given it freely, there is nothing within an engineering classroom that differentiates a male and a female engineering education, women should be given the freedom to enter, learn and participate. But a wholly positive perception by her peers of her is not something that a woman is automatically entitled to.
If you actually believe that having a voluntary student organization that caters more to the male mindset than the female is tantamount to sexual harassment, then I'm surprised that you don't cry rape everytime a man looks at a woman's breasts in public without her consent (when will these evil cismen stop eyeraping poor helpless womyn?).


If the mere possibility of a bunch of people singing certain songs (most of which aren't singular to mac, the S&M and chicago store chant are famous rugby songs) bothers first year engineers that much then maybe they should reconsider their career choice, since the field is fraught with far more trials and tribulations than that. Of course it's the university's right to do as it pleases, but this certainly is a demonstration of student rights being squished by a greed for no controversy on mcmaster's side.

Originally Posted by WillyH

And they are given it freely, there is nothing within an engineering classroom that differentiates a male and a female engineering education, women should be given the freedom to enter, learn and participate. But a wholly positive perception by her peers of her is not something that a woman is automatically entitled to.
If you actually believe that having a voluntary student organization that caters more to the male mindset than the female is tantamount to sexual harassment, then I'm surprised that you don't cry rape everytime a man looks at a woman's breasts in public without her consent (when will these evil cismen stop eyeraping poor helpless womyn?).


If the mere possibility of a bunch of people singing certain songs (most of which aren't singular to mac, the S&M and chicago store chant are famous rugby songs) bothers first year engineers that much then maybe they should reconsider their career choice, since the field is fraught with far more trials and tribulations than that. Of course it's the university's right to do as it pleases, but this certainly is a demonstration of student rights being squished by a greed for no controversy on mcmaster's side.

No, but a completely neutral one is one that she -is- entitled to. Straight up, simple.

Here's something for you. You walk into a bar, people immediately call you (and sing songs about) a homophobic slur because you're skinny and have a metro haircut. Guess what, under your protocol, that's COMPLETELY fine. They don't know you, you've never been in their social group, so that's OKAY, right? Right?

No, but a completely neutral one is one that she -is- entitled to. Straight up, simple.

She is entitled to neutral treatment, but not a neutral perception about her. Most people can tell whether they like a person within a few seconds of seeing them. Do I wish the world worked this way? No, I wish people could spend a lot of time to get to know every person in their lives and understand where they are coming from, but our time on this earth is limited so we have developed a lot of heuristics to help us out.

Here's something for you. You walk into a bar, people immediately call you (and sing songs about) a homophobic slur because you're skinny and have a metro haircut. Guess what, under your protocol, that's COMPLETELY fine. They don't know you, you've never been in their social group, so that's OKAY, right? Right?

I wasn't aware that the redsuits were standing around women and purposefully insulting them for extend periods of time, care to point out some instances of it happening? The S&M song has enough material to target all demographics and I've never even heard of anyone hearing it sung in person. The best part is that it's just a rugby song, there were no evil misogynist engineers crafting this verbal assault rape, they just picked it up for the shock.

Also, where did I mention that forming preconceptions meant that you could explicitly insult someone? But otherwise ya, if you don't know someone you are going to make conclusions about them based on past experience, this happens everyday. So if we continue treating female engineers like dainty little glass maidens, do you think that it increases their chances of being taken seriously?

Hey guys if you're looking for the song list i found it here
http://www.rugbysongs.net/rugbysng.pdf

and on the topic of the S&M man, as a fourth year engineering student, I first heard it in second year.... from a member of the executive council of University of Waterloo Engineering Student Society... and never heard it again.

Originally Posted by WillyH

She is entitled to neutral treatment, but not a neutral perception about her. Most people can tell whether they like a person within a few seconds of seeing them. Do I wish the world worked this way? No, I wish people could spend a lot of time to get to know every person in their lives and understand where they are coming from, but our time on this earth is limited so we have developed a lot of heuristics to help us out.


I wasn't aware that the redsuits were standing around women and purposefully insulting them for extend periods of time, care to point out some instances of it happening? The S&M song has enough material to target all demographics and I've never even heard of anyone hearing it sung in person. The best part is that it's just a rugby song, there were no evil misogynist engineers crafting this verbal assault rape, they just picked it up for the shock.

Also, where did I mention that forming preconceptions meant that you could explicitly insult someone? But otherwise ya, if you don't know someone you are going to make conclusions about them based on past experience, this happens everyday. So if we continue treating female engineers like dainty little glass maidens, do you think that it increases their chances of being taken seriously?

Just because engineers didn't write the song, that doesn't mean they're off the hook for singing it and promoting it via the songbook.

This is pretty much the last time I'm going to say this - and it's also why I'm not bothering to respond to your longer post; I'd just end up repeating myself for the umpteenth time - not singing the song, and treating others with respect, does not mean you're "treating female engineers like dainty little glass maidens". A person shouldn't have to put up with shit like that (from anyone, including the majority gender that was there "first") in order to be taken seriously. That's the whole concept of gender equality. This is what people mean when they say we've still got a ways to go before truly achieving gender equality. The idea that anyone who is offended or doesn't like the song is weak and doesn't deserve to have their opinion taken seriously is a huge part of the problem with having sexist, degrading songs like that that are sung "in good fun".

As long as this attitude persists, it will continue to deter (some) women, and even some men, from going into engineering, even if that's what they really want to do. As someone else pointed out, it's not unreasonable to think that this culture/attitude is responsible for at least some of the dropouts after first year. And please don't delude yourself into thinking that the people who chose to leave for that reason were weak and wouldn't have been able to handle the rigours of engineering - the two are completely unrelated. Some people may fall into both categories, where they had trouble handling the program AND disliked the misogynistic culture as two separate issues, but that isn't always the case. It's also possible that this culture makes it difficult for people to study and achieve their full potential in terms of academics, if they have less peer support because of it. That isn't something I have personally witnessed and I have no idea if it's actually an issue in Mac Eng, but it is possible and it's something that people (administrators, the general public) get concerned about when they find out that this attitude is promoted in such a way.

When I first saw the songbook, during frosh week in first year, my immediate reaction was "I'm glad I'm not in eng". Even the friend who showed it to me, who is female but gets along with guys far better than she gets along with other girls, who was right at home in engineering, was quite disconcerted. Her boyfriend (also in engineering) thought that some of the songs were disgusting, too.
At the same time, it didn't occur to any of us that it might be violating university policy or to bring it to the attention of the administrators. It was accepted as "just the way things are" - and I don't think that's a good thing. I also think that's one of the reasons I was so shocked when the school finally took action. My frosh week was 6 years ago, and I'm sure the songbook was circulating long before that. Just because it's "status quo", that doesn't make it right and that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. If your justification for anything is "that's just the way things are", then you need to think long and hard about WHY.

So you go on a rant about why women are so weak that they can't function in an environment that doesn't cater to them, without addressing any of my points? It's great that there are champions of equality out there like you to make women seem like merited additions to the field instead of quota figures to make things look more diverse, your contribution is greatly appreciated. I really love the way that you convey your argument, meaningless buzzwords are great at painting a clear picture of intent, who needs silly old facts and propositions?

But really, any woman who is deterred from engineering all thanks to some entries in a a songbook that were wholly copied from a large repository of rowdy sports songs, like http://www.rugbysongs.net/rugbysng.pdf , probably isn't best best suited for engineering.
You know why? Because guys wrote the song, and songs like it, and things a thousand times worse. And guess what? The majority of engineers are guys! So if your panties start contorting from a mere song, then how will you ever be able to fully work with people who find things like it funny?

Let's just call a spade a spade, you aren't upset at the redsuits for the songbook. You are upset that 50% of the population has a coarse sense of humor, a high libido and propensity for aggression. What you really want is for engineering and all other areas of life to become sterilized and removed from any sense of maleness. Our public schools have already gone down that path, boys are already being taught in a way that doesn't click with them and ever increasing numbers feel that higher education just isn't for them. Mac already has a 9% gender gap favouring women, but all anyone can talk about is how to get more women in STEM, how to make it a more female friendly environment.

When will it be enough? If you are a man and a student in a university then you are the minority, and yet you are treated like some sort of oppressor and told that you have to change. So when a man doesn't want to go to university then it's his choice, but when a woman doesn't want to go in to engineering then the environment is at fault? No one should be barred from enrollment or be discriminated against in the classroom, I'm all for equality of opportunity, but when you are telling me about how I and other men should think then you are going beyond equality and into subjugation.