Originally Posted by WillyH

So you go on a rant about why women are so weak that they can't function in an environment that doesn't cater to them, without addressing any of my points? It's great that there are champions of equality out there like you to make women seem like merited additions to the field instead of quota figures to make things look more diverse, your contribution is greatly appreciated. I really love the way that you convey your argument, meaningless buzzwords are great at painting a clear picture of intent, who needs silly old facts and propositions?

But really, any woman who is deterred from engineering all thanks to some entries in a a songbook that were wholly copied from a large repository of rowdy sports songs, like http://www.rugbysongs.net/rugbysng.pdf , probably isn't best best suited for engineering.
You know why? Because guys wrote the song, and songs like it, and things a thousand times worse. And guess what? The majority of engineers are guys! So if your panties start contorting from a mere song, then how will you ever be able to fully work with people who find things like it funny?

Let's just call a spade a spade, you aren't upset at the redsuits for the songbook. You are upset that 50% of the population has a coarse sense of humor, a high libido and propensity for aggression. What you really want is for engineering and all other areas of life to become sterilized and removed from any sense of maleness. Our public schools have already gone down that path, boys are already being taught in a way that doesn't click with them and ever increasing numbers feel that higher education just isn't for them. Mac already has a 9% gender gap favouring women, but all anyone can talk about is how to get more women in STEM, how to make it a more female friendly environment.

When will it be enough? If you are a man and a student in a university then you are the minority, and yet you are treated like some sort of oppressor and told that you have to change. So when a man doesn't want to go to university then it's his choice, but when a woman doesn't want to go in to engineering then the environment is at fault? No one should be barred from enrollment or be discriminated against in the classroom, I'm all for equality of opportunity, but when you are telling me about how I and other men should think then you are going beyond equality and into subjugation.

I love how you act like to being in engineering is like the worlds most difficult field... Being able to handle the work load of an engineering student has nothing to do with having to listen to or sing silly songs. Hint, in your future job, when you sing sexist childish songs you won't just be suspended for a year, you'll be fired... And maybe a woman will take your job :O
I'm probably with you in agreeing that the suspension is excessive, but you're making yourself (and your fellow engineers) look pretty childish with your illogical commentary.

Originally Posted by WillyH

So you go on a rant about why women are so weak that they can't function in an environment that doesn't cater to them, without addressing any of my points? It's great that there are champions of equality out there like you to make women seem like merited additions to the field instead of quota figures to make things look more diverse, your contribution is greatly appreciated. I really love the way that you convey your argument, meaningless buzzwords are great at painting a clear picture of intent, who needs silly old facts and propositions?

But really, any woman who is deterred from engineering all thanks to some entries in a a songbook that were wholly copied from a large repository of rowdy sports songs, like [rugby link] , probably isn't best best suited for engineering.
You know why? Because guys wrote the song, and songs like it, and things a thousand times worse. And guess what? The majority of engineers are guys! So if your panties start contorting from a mere song, then how will you ever be able to fully work with people who find things like it funny?

If a woman is smart enough and dedicated enough to pass engineering courses but finds the attitude of her peers to be harmful, that doesn't make her unsuited for engineering. That makes the culture of the engineering community unsuitable for its diverse members and in need of change. If a culture excludes its own members, regardless of the demographic these members came from, the strength of the entire community will suffer. The solution is not to exclude "outliers" when those people make up a significant portion of the engineering community. The solution is to improve the conditions that are making the community obsolete.

A few posts back you mentioned you believe there is no toxic environment within the faculty of engineering. This toxic environment is in fact the belief that if someone does not approve of a prevailent, possibly harmful, view that they should simply leave the faculty for one that will not cause them discomfort. This completely ignores the fact that these students have worked just as hard as their peers to earn a place in the engineering community at McMaster. This toxic environment persists in the exclusion of members who could increase diversity by bringing new perspectives to the field and creates negative connotations for STEM fields in the workforce. << news. cornell. edu/stories/2013/11/something-about-stem-drives-women-out >>

And yes, the songbook was not written by engineers but taken from other sources. This does not change the fact that these songs are wholly inappropriate to be sung or be associated with the engineering faculty. If you wish to find these offensive songs funny, you can do so privately and without enforcing it on a greater and diverse community. No one in engineering is at all required to accept your behavior and use it as a model for themselves.

The redsuits have messed up in allowing these offensive beliefs to propagate by continuing to participate in outdated practices. We, as a part of the engineering community, have messed up in allowing these sorts of offensive things to define our faculty. The University has messed up in allowing this to go on as long as it has, despite the effects it has been having on the school as a whole. We came to McMaster for an education, and if we do not accept the mistakes we have made and work to rectify the results of those actions, we will leave this institution having learned nothing.

I personally do not believe that the suspension of the Redsuits will fix the problem. It is apparent that the attitude of the redsuits is shared by other universities and engineering students, and the banning of one groups activities on campus will not alter this archaic mentality. As well, the Redsuits often participate in many events that are positive for future and current students and stopping these activities could have damaging effects. That said, it is very difficult to supply an appropriate solution, though I do believe the Redsuits should be given the chance to change their group's attitude and cultivate a more positive environment for next year's potential engineering students instead of suspending the Redsuits as punishment without addressing the problematic elements of their group that are in need of improvement.

It is incredibly clear by the bigotry that has manifested in portions of the engineering community as a result of the Redsuit suspension, that the issues present are much larger than just an offensive songbook. It is time to stop being ignorant of the attitudes we have been overlooking for years and work towards the creation of university setting that does not exclude its own members.

Originally Posted by starfish

Unfortunately, the songbook doesn't show that part of engineering. It's also a bit of a sexist attitude (the worshipping of female engineers), but certainly less harmful than what some of those lyrics advocate. I think the point the administrators are trying to make is that it doesn't matter what else you do; nothing makes up for chanting songs that advocate rape and a bunch of other awful things. They don't even have evidence that the song isn't sung, so based on the songbook they have to assume that it is.


I completely disagree that women "generally dislike the field". Low enrollment rates of women in engineering are due to a myriad of reasons. Just because I didn't choose to study English, for example, that doesn't mean I dislike the field of English and look down on all English majors and make fun of them. Enrollment rates isn't a good indicator of how much a group "likes" a field.

And why do you assume that women in engineering come in and want to be treated as "one of the guys"? Wanting to be treated equally isn't the same as wanting to be treated as if you're a guy. That idea implies that something is inherently better about being a man compared to a woman. You can treat a woman with respect and also not pretend that she's a guy. And again, the burden of proof is NOT on the minority to prove that they should be treated equally. A skinny guy being able to life 300lbs has absolutely nothing to do with this. The right to lift 300lbs is nonexistent; the right to an education in an environment free of sexual harassment is the law.


The songbook was made all in good fun with no intent to harm anyone - of that I am reasonably certain. But that doesn't make it any better - in fact, in some ways it makes it worse, and continually defending the songbook and saying that its existence is a good thing that contributes to the engineering community means that you're totally missing the point of why people are against it in the first place.

It does seem extremely harsh to ban all redsuits, particularly because the students who make the book have already graduated. But, the current redsuits propagated it year after year, which makes them just as guilty in the eyes of the administration. And after all of the news this past WW of crude chants on university campuses (that aren't NEARLY as bad as the S&M song), it was shaping up to be a public image nightmare if it got out that this songbook existed and the school knew about it and did nothing. That's why the punishment is so harsh.

So its sexist if men think they are better than females, and now it is also sexist if men worship females... With your logic men should just not interact with females at all. Thanks for bringing the end of humanity upon us.
So based on the fact that there is a book with these chants written down and no evidence that the engineers are singing these songs, they without a doubt MUST be singing them? Please never become a lawyer as your grasp on reason is fleeting at best.
No, enrollment rates arent a good indicator of who likes what field. They ARE an indicator of who likes which fields THE MOST. And based on that, females typically dont value engineering as their desired field of interest. So that point you made is not only irrelevant, but also completely incorrect.
Yes, not meaning harm from these lyrics is much worse than having the engineers actually mean what was written in this book by past classes of engineers. I too would much rather have a [removed by moderator]

Originally Posted by maclover

This is the best thing that has happened to McMaster Engineering in a long time!

Man, on faculty night in my first year, I was feeling so awkward and offended when they were singing the coksucker song in bus, I was wondering why did I come to this university and this faculty...

These songs are not in good fun; they can be quite negatively influential on first years. They can distract incoming enthusiastic and studious students into thinking engineering is all about alcohol, sex and "having fun" as opposed to becoming able and confident engineers. That's actually how a lot of students drop out in first year.

Did anyone ever make you get on that bus? Even if you were on there, not everyone in life has to change their attitudes because you are overly sensitive. [Removed by moderator]

According to your post, you cant be an able, confident engineer if you value alcohol sex and "fun". So i dont know what you were even doing on that bus if you do not value fun, as you must have been too busy in your dorm trying to become an able engineer.
I guarantee that there is not a significant amount of students who dropped out because of the redsuits. That is absolutely ridiculous.
That first line tho... i bet there are a lot of people who would love to give you an earful with how you are bashing the redsuits. I havent met many engineering students that have ever been this critical of the redsuits. But please if you hate it here at mac so much, please just leave.

Originally Posted by BenDover

So its sexist if men think they are better than females, and now it is also sexist if men worship females... With your logic men should just not interact with females at all. Thanks for bringing the end of humanity upon us.
So based on the fact that there is a book with these chants written down and no evidence that the engineers are singing these songs, they without a doubt MUST be singing them? Please never become a lawyer as your grasp on reason is fleeting at best.
No, enrollment rates arent a good indicator of who likes what field. They ARE an indicator of who likes which fields THE MOST. And based on that, females typically dont value engineering as their desired field of interest. So that point you made is not only irrelevant, but also completely incorrect.
Yes, not meaning harm from these lyrics is much worse than having the engineers actually mean what was written in this book by past classes of engineers. I too would much rather have a...

Yes, sexism can go both ways - viewing the opposite sex in either an unrealistically positive OR negative say. Saying Asians are smart and good at math and music is racist, although being smart and good at math and music aren't bad things. That doesn't mean you shouldn't interact with others.

As for the second part, you took what I said out of context. I was attempting to explain part of the reason why administrators saw fit to take such harsh action based on the presence of a songbook, not that I personally believe that because the songbook exists, all of the songs are sung regularly. And at no point did I say that the existence of the songbook means they're singing them without a doubt - I just said that there's no proof that they're NOT being sung, and since the songbook exists, they have to assume that the songs are sung. It's rather hard to prove that something is never done, and discipline at a university doesn't follow the same principles as a court of law.

You also took the third part out of context - I was responding to a post that said since enrollment numbers in engineering are so low, women hate engineering and why should it matter if they're offended.
Although, there are a number of reasons why someone would choose one field over another, besides simply "liking it more". Job prospects, parental pressure, aptitude (just because you really like something, that doesn't make you good at it), etc.

And the last part...I said in SOME ways it makes it worse. I meant that in the sense that people have no idea that it's wrong to say things like that. At least you can make some headway with someone if they realize why what they're doing is unacceptable. But if they genuinely believe there's nothing wrong with it, it's really difficult to change.

Hi everyone,

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Originally Posted by starfish

Yes, sexism can go both ways - viewing the opposite sex in either an unrealistically positive OR negative say. Saying Asians are smart and good at math and music is racist, although being smart and good at math and music aren't bad things. That doesn't mean you shouldn't interact with others.

As for the second part, you took what I said out of context. I was attempting to explain part of the reason why administrators saw fit to take such harsh action based on the presence of a songbook, not that I personally believe that because the songbook exists, all of the songs are sung regularly. And at no point did I say that the existence of the songbook means they're singing them without a doubt - I just said that there's no proof that they're NOT being sung, and since the songbook exists, they have to assume that the songs are sung. It's rather hard to prove that something is never done, and discipline at a university doesn't follow the same principles as a court of law.

You also took the third part out of context - I was responding to a post that said since enrollment numbers in engineering are so low, women hate engineering and why should it matter if they're offended.
Although, there are a number of reasons why someone would choose one field over another, besides simply "liking it more". Job prospects, parental pressure, aptitude (just because you really like something, that doesn't make you good at it), etc.

And the last part...I said in SOME ways it makes it worse. I meant that in the sense that people have no idea that it's wrong to say things like that. At least you can make some headway with someone if they realize why what they're doing is unacceptable. But if they genuinely believe there's nothing wrong with it, it's really difficult to change.

Saying that asians are good at math and music is not racist. There are a large number of asian people who excel in both the fields of mathematics and music. Saying this is no different than saying a tall person should probably look to play basketball or volleyball as a sport of choice. People are too sensitive about generalizations. Is there anything negative about saying that a majority of a certain racial population is GOOD at something? i dont think so.
You just said it again. Based on the fact that the song book exists, they must assume that the songs are being sung. THEREFORE WITHOUT ANY PROOF OF THE SONGS BEING SUNG, WE MUST ASSUME THEY ARE BEING SUNG. Again please stay out of law.
If people are choosing jobs based on what their parents want, then their opinions dont have any weight in this conversation as it is clear that their decisions are made by their parents, not them. Therefore i would only accept their parents response on this matter.

The song book is honestly just tradition. Many of these songs are even used on long bus field trips. This was obviously created long ago and there is clearly a disclaimer. Sure the mere existence of it does lead to possible chance it was used but who knows without proof.

Honestly this has blown way out of proportion. The school also handled this poorly cause McMaster talked to MSU president and released statement BEFORE the MES had any light on this. It has brought up way too much unneeded attention. Im not trying to be biased towards the MES but it was just handled poorly

Originally Posted by Leeoku

The song book is honestly just tradition. Many of these songs are even used on long bus field trips. This was obviously created long ago and there is clearly a disclaimer. Sure the mere existence of it does lead to possible chance it was used but who knows without proof.

Honestly this has blown way out of proportion. The school also handled this poorly cause McMaster talked to MSU president and released statement BEFORE the MES had any light on this. It has brought up way too much unneeded attention. Im not trying to be biased towards the MES but it was just handled poorly

The songbook represents a systematic discrimination against women. The fact that people like you don't decry its existence says something in itself.

Do you think having a piece of literature to be fed to young confused engineers is going to build positive or negative ideas about women, other cultures, and violence?

Originally Posted by RyanC

The songbook represents a systematic discrimination against women. The fact that people like you don't decry its existence says something in itself.

Do you think having a piece of literature to be fed to young confused engineers is going to build positive or negative ideas about women, other cultures, and violence?

If a person's values and beliefs are so easily swayed by the words written in some stupid book from years ago (sounds a lot like religious texts, no?), that person clearly does not have a strong sense of self and needs to learn how to be able to stand by their values.

To be clear: The songbook was never, in the history of Mac Eng, handed out to first years or Welcome Week representatives (I use that term because the administration failed to identify the correct group they were referring to); the book was not endorsed or condoned by any past leadership of the MES, and these accusation are defamatory to dozens upon dozens of highly successful students and alumni.

Furthermore, the accusations have strained (at the least) a highly positive relationship between student leadership and the Faculty. Ironically, many of the old, uncomfortable traditions and practices that many in this thread have cited, as well as many others which the Faculty is well aware of, have been eliminated, especially in the past few years. Even more ironically, it is the people who built these better relationships with the Faculty who face the most defamation and the most difficulty in the coming weeks and months.

Just for a tiny taste of what has been mis-stated so far (a non-comprehensive review): Bus cheers are not a Welcome Week thing anymore; Kipling Pranks are completed with much more Faculty-student interaction as of late; Mac Eng has eliminated many of the oldest traditional pub events, which used to be sanctioned (but ha been unsanctioned as of late); Mac Eng leadership has helped other Faculty society leadership to run sanctioned events. All of these accomplishments were made when the University worked with student leadership, consulting them before taking action.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of even some of the people you can see posting in this thread, silly students with a passion for "tradition" will likely / have used the University's hard line as fuel for re-igniting some old tradition, or for justifying something like some of the cheers in the songbook. This is something the student society cannot tolerate, especially under so much scrutiny. It is also something the student society understood, and was careful to consider as it moved forward with improving engineering student life.

I would invite any future and past posters to re-evaluate the assumptions you have about how engineering society practices are handled today, especially before speaking up against all "redsuits", or the MES. You'll find pretty quickly that the character of the student leadership, and the majority of people who own a "redsuit", does not fit that which the University is pursuing with such a passion.

*Disclaimer: I do not speak for the MES. I am simply privy to the state of affairs, as I have been here for 5 years and have been a part of much transformation --- for the significant better.

Originally Posted by mike_302

To be clear: The songbook was never, in the history of Mac Eng, handed out to first years or Welcome Week representatives (I use that term because the administration failed to correct group they were referring to); the book was not endorsed or condoned by any past leadership of the MES, and these accusation are defamatory to dozens upon dozens of highly successful students and alumni.

Furthermore, the accusations have strained (at the least) a highly positive relationship between student leadership and the Faculty. Ironically, many of the old, uncomfortable traditions and practices that many in this thread have cited, as well as many others which the Faculty is well aware of, have been eliminated, especially in the past few years. Even more ironically, it is the people who built these better relationships with the Faculty who face the most defamation and the most difficulty in the coming weeks and months.

Just for a tiny taste of what has been mis-stated so far (a non-comprehensive review): Bus cheers are not a Welcome Week thing anymore; Kipling Pranks are completed with much more Faculty-student interaction as of late; Mac Eng has eliminated many of the oldest traditional pub events, which used to be sanctioned (but ha been unsanctioned as of late); Mac Eng leadership has helped other Faculty society leadership to run sanctioned events. All of these accomplishments were made when the University worked with student leadership, consulting them before taking action.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of even some of the people you can see posting in this thread, silly students with a passion for "tradition" will likely / have used the University's hard line as fuel for re-igniting some old tradition, or for justifying something like some of the cheers in the songbook. This is something the student society cannot tolerate, especially under so much scrutiny. It is also something the student society understood, and was careful to consider as it moved forward with improving engineering student life.

I would invite any future and past posters to re-evaluate the assumptions you have about how engineering society practices are handled today, especially before speaking up against all "redsuits", or the MES. You'll find pretty quickly that the character of the student leadership, and the majority of people who own a "redsuit", does not fit that which the University is pursuing with such a passion.

*Disclaimer: I do not speak for the MES. I am simply privy to the state of affairs, as I have been here for 5 years and have been a part of much transformation --- for the significant better.

Excellent post first off. I had been a member of the ECES for my last two years, and there was always coordination with the faculty when organizing events and with Kipling Pranks. All kipling pranks must be approved by faculty prior to getting the green light. I worry for how these events are going to possibly sever ties between the MES, the multiple groups within the engineering faculty, and the MSU. McMaster has done an extremely poor job of handling this situation

As for the second part, you took what I said out of context. I was attempting to explain part of the reason why administrators saw fit to take such harsh action based on the presence of a songbook, not that I personally believe that because the songbook exists, all of the songs are sung regularly. And at no point did I say that the existence of the songbook means they're singing them without a doubt - I just said that there's no proof that they're NOT being sung, and since the songbook exists, they have to assume that the songs are sung. It's rather hard to prove that something is never done, and discipline at a university doesn't follow the same principles as a court of law.

And it all comes out ladies and gents.
>just because you don't have proof of something NOT happening doesn't mean that it didn't happen
Guilty until proven innocent.

What more can be said? If the trend continues and censorship prevails over free discourse, feelings prevail over rights, opinions prevail over facts then we might as well pack our bags, it's over, totalitarianism has won, not from a top down tyrant but from a multitude of petty vigilantes who are more than happy to throw you to the dogs if you don't agree with their dogma.

The songbook represents a systematic discrimination against women. The fact that people like you don't decry its existence says something in itself.

Discrimination against women? In what way is a physical girl in engineering being discriminated against? I've never seen a girl in my classes who with the slightest effort on her part couldn't get her peers to bend over backwards to help her. I thought discrimination meant being treated worse than others, should I call my friends and relatives biggoted for treating me better than they treat strangers?

Do you think having a piece of literature to be fed to young confused engineers is going to build positive or negative ideas about women, other cultures, and violence?

Being fed to? I never heard about the songbook until this whole scandal. How many more people do you think are going to know about the S&M man thanks to university's wisdom?
Other than that it's the same totalist logic, just because I don't agree with something then no one should ever see it. Why don't we just censor every single thing that our feminists overlords feel is offensive then? Think of how much less biggotry there would be in the world if we just shut down the internet, burned every piece of literature and put a gag on everyone!
I'm pretty sure that if you managed to reach university age then you have had more than enough time to build up a certain view of women, other cultures, and violence, a few rugby chants aren't going to make you want to rape a woman tomorrow.

For me this debacle however has certainly helped build a better view of women, in that now I better understand that if a woman is ever inconvenienced then I and other men should prostrate ourselves and beg forgiveness, for how could the value of the things that we men find entertaining ever compare to the whims of someone with a birth canal? How could I have ever believed that I was equal to these divine fallopian-endowed goddesses, clearly even if a man does something that harms no one he is still a criminal if he doesn't defer worship to our mammary'd deities in the proper way. What's more, he doesn't even need to be proven to have done so, for if he doesn't provide solid evidence to the contrary then it is assumed that he is guilty, because he is a dirty man afterall how could his word compare to that of the divine?

Originally Posted by BenDover

If a person's values and beliefs are so easily swayed by the words written in some stupid book from years ago (sounds a lot like religious texts, no?), that person clearly does not have a strong sense of self and needs to learn how to be able to stand by their values.

This is not an argument. People entering a new institution for the first time are VERY impressionable because this is usually the first time in a majority of the students' lives that they are brought outside of their comfort zone, are away from home, are somewhere where they have few friends (at first) and are strongly influenced by peer pressure, and are otherwise put in a situation to go through a major change (like middle-school to high-school is).

Your automatic presumption is that everyone at this stage in their life has a strong sense of self and are secure in their beliefs and values. Entering University is PRECISELY one of the points in people's lives when they are most susceptible to swaying and forming of new beliefs, and the argument is that the sort of culture that the phrasebook suggests, will influence students to be disrespectful. While the book "isn't used any more", I was exposed it several times throughout my first two years. While the book may be hidden, it still represents the sorts of attitudes that aren't necessarily pushed, but aren't fought against. This isn't about there being a piece of engineering scripture that disciples of the suit of red are mandated to follow, but there being the open opportunity to tend towards these same sort of thoughts and beliefs.

The University suspending the Redsuits isn't simply about stopping these fellows from having fun, it's about sending a message about what sort of ideals, we, as a society are intolerant towards. Regardless of the actions undertaken, people will still talk the way they do... but when the institution you attend takes the exposition of a backward, misogynist, violent and crude set of chants seriously, it says to everybody that "this happened, but we're better than that". I don't particularly agree with things like positive affirmation or trying to correct the past actions that institutions engaged in, but I do see the need to own up to what has happened and show to a large body of people that "this happened, and it wasn't alright". Certainly this is also about the University saving face and possible lawsuit, as well as protecting themselves, should it have been become widespread knowledge to affect their reputation (i.e. academic, intellectual, healthcare, social justice, and other aspects) with the world at large.

It's funny how even though there are just about as many instances of violence and sexual assault against men in the chants that you only call them misogynist, why do you think that is? If you are against crudeness, violence, and the inequality between genders, then why are you not against every single video game and movie that involves men hurting each other? But let's not even use fiction, if you are so against women being even slightly offended by words regarding sexuality, then why are you not actively campaigning against prisons, institutions where men are shipped off to be literally sexually assaulted for years at a time? Real life, easily preventable, mass rapings seem to be far higher on the list of things that we should get rid off of to reduce sexual harassment than words in an obscure book.

But oh, that's right, things are only not okay when our little XX angels get "mistreated", it's perfectly alright to maim and murder men. How about a little less hypocrisy? Equality doesn't mean preferential treatment for one gender. If a woman legitimately felt hurt by someone singing that song with the express intent to cause her harm, then sure, take some sort of action. But if a page in a book, of a transcribed song, with a page-long disclaimer before it, written years ago, is a concern for you then I would love to trade places with you, since you obviously have already reached a cushy equilibrium in life.

Originally Posted by RyanC

This is not an argument. People entering a new institution for the first time are VERY impressionable because this is usually the first time in a majority of the students' lives that they are brought outside of their comfort zone, are away from home, are somewhere where they have few friends (at first) and are strongly influenced by peer pressure, and are otherwise put in a situation to go through a major change (like middle-school to high-school is).

Your automatic presumption is that everyone at this stage in their life has a strong sense of self and are secure in their beliefs and values. Entering University is PRECISELY one of the points in people's lives when they are most susceptible to swaying and forming of new beliefs, and the argument is that the sort of culture that the phrasebook suggests, will influence students to be disrespectful. While the book "isn't used any more", I was exposed it several times throughout my first two years. While the book may be hidden, it still represents the sorts of attitudes that aren't necessarily pushed, but aren't fought against. This isn't about there being a piece of engineering scripture that disciples of the suit of red are mandated to follow, but there being the open opportunity to tend towards these same sort of thoughts and beliefs.

The University suspending the Redsuits isn't simply about stopping these fellows from having fun, it's about sending a message about what sort of ideals, we, as a society are intolerant towards. Regardless of the actions undertaken, people will still talk the way they do... but when the institution you attend takes the exposition of a backward, misogynist, violent and crude set of chants seriously, it says to everybody that "this happened, but we're better than that". I don't particularly agree with things like positive affirmation or trying to correct the past actions that institutions engaged in, but I do see the need to own up to what has happened and show to a large body of people that "this happened, and it wasn't alright". Certainly this is also about the University saving face and possible lawsuit, as well as protecting themselves, should it have been become widespread knowledge to affect their reputation (i.e. academic, intellectual, healthcare, social justice, and other aspects) with the world at large.

Everyone in life is always impressionable. That does not take away from one's ability to make choices for themselves. If you allow your peers to tell you how to act, dress, etc., then i still say you need to grow a set. You make it sound as if hearing someone chant these words will make them believe that its ok and start embracing the values of the chants. this is complete bullshit to be completely honest.

The fact that anyone supports the punishment of the current group of redsuits for a book that none of them had any part in writing is absurd. McMaster was "looking for a way to save face" and in doing so, punished a group of students who not only are known to help around the community through a number of different volunteering initiatives, but also are well known for making the overall campus life experience much more positive and welcoming.