Originally Posted by Alchemist11

I think it's pretty funny how the original point wasn't even that insane to begin with - I'm sure we've all had doubts about whether or not Bin Laden really died when they said he did, but Icecream argued his point so poorly it made the notion seem ridiculous and paranoid.
"

I'm somewhat skeptical of the claims as well, because of the manner in which this whole thing was carried out.

But when you see posts like icecream's, it's hard not to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.

Originally Posted by Icecream

NAME ME ONE THING PHILOSOPHY DID.

.

Philosophy, the act of insight and inquiring about what makes up the world around us, can be attributed to the way our country is governed and the laws it is structured by. Philosophy is why you don't get killed when you post stupid/illogical posts on MI (freedom of speech ftw).

Originally Posted by Alchemist11

Also, I'm not sure if you're trying to impress people with your knowledge/memorization of "Hadith and the Quran" but failing to provide any citations while other people cite contradictory evidence doesn't really strengthen your argument because you aren't using that knowledge besides saying "no you're wrong, you deserve to go to Hell."

Proof ? I don't need to show you the verses , the Hadith isn't made up of verses.

Think logically, if nearly 100% of Muslims were buried in the land, that what does Islam teaches about burial ? It's like asking Christians about where in the Bible does it talk about Jesus when they all believe in him.

And congrats on using a definition for philosophy on wikipedia, but when you take it from multiple dictionaries it says it is a study or a science (which is a study).

Laws were derived from philosophy ? I am pretty sure most of the laws you have were from Monotheistic religions, common sense or universal values.

You guys said I argued poorly, well I wasn't arguing at all. I was asking questions, and all you gave me were reasons. I gave reasons why they should release the photos, but both your reasons and mine are equal unless there is a historical example that supports one.

Everyone was dodging Mullah Dadullah death. Why did they release pictures of his death, and showed his body to the world ?

If you can't answer the above I win.

EDIT: I just destroyed you, took my a while to find it...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/...n_sea_buri al

By the way Abu Dawud is also a right collection in Islam, don't have the book but I verified with my local Imam...

"The Sunnah is to put the deceased into the grave from the end, then he should be turned onto his right side in the grave, with his face facing towards the qiblah. The one who puts him into the lahd (niche in the grave) should say, “Bismillaahi wa ‘ala sunnat Rasool-Allaahi or ‘ala millat Rasool-Allaahi (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) (In the name of Allaah and according to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah or according to the religion of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)).”

(narrated by al-Tirmidhi, al-Janaa’iz 967; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan Abu Dawood, 836)

So why do you guys have to LIE about Islamic burial ? The govt could have just pee'd on him, I wouldn't care less. It's the lies and the stupid blind folks who follow them. I still want proof.

we love you O_ama

Give it up, Icecream/Commander. Your raving posts are enough to give any sane person a headache. And stop flagging everyone's posts like a stubborn little baby. Mahratta et al. totally killed you in the debate.

Killed me ? Lol, he has yet to explain to me what a physical proof is. And someone has yet to give me a better reason for not releasing the pics when they already did that with Taliban Commanders.

What Mahratta did was changing the topics. I have shown that there was no Islamic Burial, yet you guys lie. I am still waiting for answers regarding my questions. (Plus: I was flagging, all the flame baiting, trolling and spamming which are all just aimed at dodging the issue.

Admit it, you guys don't like reality. You wished the government doesn't lie. You tried to teach me about my religion but you miserably failed at it. Every excuses (for not releasing the picture) you brought up are made of thin air without any historical evidence as a support. The reason I gave to show them was the same reasons to show all the Tali commanders.)

Someone or some folks even mentioned DNA testing when they don't realize you need a pre-existing sample and that, for DNA profiling, you don't compare it with a family member (that is done for genealogical purposes)

Every reason or excuses were debunked, and don't forget it was a 1 vs 5-10 discussion.

EDIT : I am not commander, but thank you for the compliment. And this is what you don't comprehend, there was no debate, it was always one sided since you guys failed to answer my questions.

Originally Posted by Icecream

... I have shown that there was no Islamic Burial, yet you guys lie. I am still waiting for answers regarding my questions.
...
Someone or some folks even mentioned DNA testing when they don't realize you need a pre-existing sample and that, for DNA profiling, you don't compare it with a family member (that is done for genealogical purposes)

...

The point brought up about the Islamic Burial was to explain the reasoning behind the disposal of the body. Nobody assumed the burial was the best choice to make, nor was it preformed right. The quotation you produced (thanks for posting one) regards land burial. If you have one that pertains to DISALLOWING sea burial, or stating something to the effect of explaining what to do with the body when you have to get rid of it at sea (logic says they should have put it in a freezer for proper burial, but they didn't).

Regarding the DNA testing issue:
I'm not even sure what you're concerned about... why does the DNA test even matter? Are you implying that Osama Bin Laden isn't even dead?

In case you are: establishing a genealogical profile can let you confidently say that the corpse is, indeed, is either Bin Laden himself, or a close member in his family. It doesn't establish the veracity of the claim that it is Osama 100% (although, I argue that anyone with any decent background in genetics can explain to you fully that comparing a given sample to a certain set of relatives can allow you assert with a high confidence that it is, indeed a match to Osama) but its pretty close.

Hi

Originally Posted by RyanC

The point brought up about the Islamic Burial was to explain the reasoning behind the disposal of the body. Nobody assumed the burial was the best choice to make, nor was it preformed right. The quotation you produced (thanks for posting one) regards land burial. If you have one that pertains to DISALLOWING sea burial, or stating something to the effect of explaining what to do with the body when you have to get rid of it at sea (logic says they should have put it in a freezer for proper burial, but they didn't).

Regarding the DNA testing issue:
I'm not even sure what you're concerned about... why does the DNA test even matter? Are you implying that Osama Bin Laden isn't even dead?

In case you are: establishing a genealogical profile can let you confidently say that the corpse is, indeed, is either Bin Laden himself, or a close member in his family. It doesn't establish the veracity of the claim that it is Osama 100% (although, I argue that anyone with any decent background in genetics can explain to you fully that comparing a given sample to a certain set of relatives can allow you assert with a high confidence that it is, indeed a match to Osama) but its pretty close.

Hi

This is better.

Ok, yes it does talk about land burial. Is sea burial disallowed ? The answer is simple. Islamic tradition or laws only apply to Muslims. We don't ask disbelievers to pray or fast. Therefore, Islamic tradition can only be performed by a Muslim to be an Islamic tradition.

The only reason it should be at sea, is as some scholars agree, when they are in a ship because it is physically impossible to bury in the land within 24 hours with a ship (old one) in the middle of the ocean .

The DNA issue was when they said he was dead. But there is no DNA testing unless there is a pre-existing sample of the person in question.

If you meant comparing two DNA samples from a father to a relative... How do we know the DNA sample is just not another brother ? Plus, they did not even give the details of the testing and there are no way of re-confirming the tests if they found a pre existing sample. What if they killed one of Bin Laden sons (a young one) and use the younglings DNA ? It is a possibility.

EDIT : What the govt claims is that they compared a sample of OBL with a brain tissue of his sister. But a sample of OBL can be an old tooth, hair or fingernails. Osama's family could have kept some when he lost them during his youth. OBL is like a hero for terrorists, a hair from him is sacred. They could have kept one.

There can be a lot of skepticism from this test, the best way of killing the skepticism would have been to show the pictures or a video before he was thrown (like they did with Mullah Dadullah)

Originally Posted by Icecream

What if they killed one of Bin Laden sons (a young one) and use the younglings DNA ? It is a possibility.

Some, but not all the bands will match.

EDIT: Ah, I misread it. Ignore this post.

Originally Posted by justinsftw

Some, but not all the bands will match.

What bans are you talking about ?

You mean the loci ? The only loci you can perfectly match is with one's own self.

Originally Posted by Icecream

This is better.

Ok, yes it does talk about land burial. Is sea burial disallowed ? The answer is simple. Islamic tradition or laws only apply to Muslims. We don't ask disbelievers to pray or fast. Therefore, Islamic tradition can only be performed by a Muslim to be an Islamic tradition.

The only reason it should be at sea, is as some scholars agree, when they are in a ship because it is physically impossible to bury in the land within 24 hours with a ship (old one) in the middle of the ocean .

Then you must ask yourself, do you think its likely that it was physically impossible for them to bury him in a proper Islamic fashion? Do you think an Imam, or whoever is responsible for that, is likely to be the one overseeing the burial of Osama Bin Laden? I'd put forth that being connected to such a man is something nobody wants to do, and the last 5 or so years people of the Islamic faith have done everything in their power to further themselves from Al Qaeda.

What do you think would happen (even if they could get to somebody qualified to preform the ritual) if he was buried? And for that matter, where would he be buried?

The DNA issue was when they said he was dead. But there is no DNA testing unless there is a pre-existing sample of the person in question.

If you meant comparing two DNA samples from a father to a relative... How do we know the DNA sample is just not another brother ? Plus, they did not even give the details of the testing and there are no way of re-confirming the tests if they found a pre existing sample. What if they killed one of Bin Laden sons (a young one) and use the younglings DNA ? It is a possibility.

I guess you just have to trust that the body is Osama's. I think its reasonable to assume that they're telling the truth, because the alternative is a massive conspiracy, which is very easy to disprove.

How can you disprove it? Well it being false that the remains are Osama means: he still lives, he just died some random place, or he died not in the hands of the American Special Forces. If hes still living, he just has to come forth and embarrass the USA, and if he died by other means, the only issue is that Obama is claiming the rewards of killing him, without actually doing so.

So you're left with 3 options: hes still living, he died and USA is taking credit by murdering another Bin Laden, or he was, in fact, killed by US Special Forces.

Ey?

Originally Posted by RyanC

Then you must ask yourself, do you think its likely that it was physically impossible for them to bury him in a proper Islamic fashion? Do you think an Imam, or whoever is responsible for that, is likely to be the one overseeing the burial of Osama Bin Laden? I'd put forth that being connected to such a man is something nobody wants to do, and the last 5 or so years people of the Islamic faith have done everything in their power to further themselves from Al Qaeda.

What do you think would happen (even if they could get to somebody qualified to preform the ritual) if he was buried? And for that matter, where would he be buried?



I guess you just have to trust that the body is Osama's. I think its reasonable to assume that they're telling the truth, because the alternative is a massive conspiracy, which is very easy to disprove.

How can you disprove it? Well it being false that the remains are Osama means he still lives, or he died not in the hands of the American Special Forces. If hes still living, he just has to come forth and embarrass the USA, and if he died by other means, the only issue is that Obama is claiming the rewards of killing him, without actually doing so.

So you're left with 3 options: hes still living, he died and USA is taking credit by murdering another Bin Laden, or he was, in fact, killed by US Special Forces.

Ey?

No, it is just about the fact that the Govt lied about the burial being an Islamic tradition. I don't care how they buried him, but they lied about it. They could have just blown his body to pieces before showing his picture to the world.

And if some people get angry, well they can just use a perfidy tactic.

1)He could be alive and under US control as a prisoner, but it is a waste of time for the US unless they want some very important information like where Mullah Omar (Taliban leader) is.

2)If he was alive and free, than he must be on the US side because being alive and against the USA means he will refute them.

3) Or he could have been dead for a long time (was in a freezer or they already had enough DNA samples) and they just decided to announce his death.

4) They could have killed him during May 1st. But why would they not show the picture ? Clearly they must be hiding something. Showing a picture can decrease the morale of the terrorists.

Thing is, these 4 possibilities are not certain since there is no sensible evidence for any of them. However some are more likely and some are less likely to be (like 2 ) I am not a conspiracy theorist, I have put forward 4 possibilities which are contradicting each other. In other words, only 1 of them must be right or they could be all wrong (which would be weird).

Originally Posted by Icecream

No, it is just about the fact that the Govt lied about the burial being an Islamic tradition. I don't care how they buried him, but they lied about it. They could have just blown his body to pieces before showing his picture to the world.

I never watched the news. I'll go watch Obama's speach in a bit... did he say something along the lines "we buried him in an Islamic fashion"?

And if some people get angry, well they can just use a perfidy tactic.

I don't understand this.

1)He could be alive and under US control as a prisoner, but it is a waste of time for the US unless they want some very important information like where Mullah Omar (Taliban leader) is.

2)If he was alive and free, than he must be on the US side because being alive and against the USA means he will refute them.

3) Or he could have been dead for a long time (was in a freezer) and they just decided to show him to the world.

4) They could have killed him during May 1st. But why would they not show the picture ? Clearly they must be hiding something. Showing a picture can boost the morale of the terrorist down.

Thing is, these 4 possibilities are not certain since there is no proof for any of them. However some are more likely and some are less likely to be (like 2 )

All of these points basically say the US have neutralized the threat and have taken him out of planning or causing harm..

I'm sure more will be brought to light in the coming month or two.

Basically what it boils down to is that you're displeased that the United States (Obama) is gaining popularity because of the death announcement. The reason why you repeatedly bring up the desire for picture evidence is because of how the story is now, theres no way they can produce the evidence since they already put him in the sea.

The question is, why would they not release the pictures (surely there should be some)? If they did indeed kill him (no matter what, he is killed or captured), then they can very easily produce photos. Its very reasonable to assume that either they don't want to anger people with gruesome photos, or...well... I don't know.. that seems like the only reasonable option. If they had his body all along, they would have easy photos.

That was just a really long and convoluted way of saying that they're telling the truth.

Originally Posted by RyanC

I never watched the news. I'll go watch Obama's speach in a bit... did he say something along the lines "we buried him in an Islamic fashion"?



I don't understand this.



All of these points basically say the US have neutralized the threat and have taken him out of planning or causing harm..

I'm sure more will be brought to light in the coming month or two.

Basically what it boils down to is that you're displeased that the United States (Obama) is gaining popularity because of the death announcement. The reason why you repeatedly bring up the desire for picture evidence is because of how the story is now, theres no way they can produce the evidence since they already put him in the sea.

The question is, why would they not release the pictures (surely there should be some)? If they did indeed kill him (no matter what, he is killed or captured), then they can very easily produce photos. Its very reasonable to assume that either they don't want to anger people with gruesome photos, or...well... I don't know.. that seems like the only reasonable option. If they had his body all along, they would have easy photos.

That was just a really long and convoluted way of saying that they're telling the truth.

I don't know what Obama said but at the white house press conference Govt officials did claim to have buried him in an "Islamic tradition".

Actually yes I don't like Obama, but what bothers me most is that people believe that the event happened at a certain time without seeing any picture or video (which can be release easily) within a day.

Maybe throwing him in the sea or claiming to do so was a way to escape from having to show the evidence ?

Why would they not release the photos ? Maybe they aren't any. Imagine a scenario where US forces killed bin Laden while he was escaping in a vehicle in 2002 in a remote area in Afghanistan.

What about the Serbian leaders who killed Bosnian Muslims in the tens of thousands ? They got a trial and it took a lot of time. Navy Seals were sent to catch them.

(referring to the above) If Osama was unarmed but resisting, they could have shot him in the leg and took him for trial since they had 20-25 Navy Seals present.

Why do Serbian terrorists are put on trial and a Arab Terrorist is killed ?

EDIT : Perfidy is basically a form of deception. You act like you're soft or surrendering just for the sake of making the enemy reveal its positions, weaknesses, and other aspects.