Sexism still exists in Engineering! STOP IT!
03-21-2014 at 07:08 PM
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#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwerty91
note they get a special lunch...but you still get lunch included.
Sexism will only stop when men and woman see their responsibilities as the same. Also the feminist movement has to be completely stopped (there shouldnt be a need for it when things balance out...not saying it needs to be stopped now). Similarly racism will not be stopped until people stop banding together by race in communities. On both fronts were not there..but were slowly moving there.
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Finally we both agree on something! Feminism is the worst thing to ever be allow to happen.
My stance is that let nature take its course. Look at farming for example. If we artificially force something to happen, it won't stay that way for long and can can turn around and kill us instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeoku
To me it looks like the $500 is for the entire program. Did they actually say that females get to come to this event free of charge? That professional development seems like it's trying to get more females into the field aka role modelling by female mentors.
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Yes, females get to come to this event as part of their $500 package.
The program is only for people who finished 3rd year already or are in graduate school. By this time, I'm pretty sure the females that are attending is already in the field. This isn't like a high school mentoring thing.
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03-21-2014 at 07:41 PM
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#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HILLyBilly
You are not getting the point that its unfair to FORCE male students to pay for a program that is ONLY geared toward one sex and discard the other one.
I called them up and they had the NERVE to confirms that the $500 registration fees from all male students will be used to covered all the programs including the one that the male are NOT allowed to attend.
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Is this an optional program, or required?
If this whole program (whatever it is with the $500 registration fee) is optional, then no, nobody is being "forced" to do anything. If you don't like the way it's run, you don't need to participate.
Also...qwerty91 didn't say feminism is bad...they said that the feminist movement will need to stop when equality is truly achieved. Big difference.
Besides, you obviously don't realize it, but women in engineering "pay" too. Not necessarily in a literal way, in the sense of paying money, but there is a cost to being one of few women in engineering - and this is a cost that men do not need to pay. And if you don't see that, then this thread might as well be shut down now, because this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. That is what underlies the equality movement (personally I prefer 'equality' to 'feminism').
One example of this "cost" - lack of respect. You stated earlier that women can get whatever marks they want without needing to work for them (I'm paraphrasing here ), simply because they're women. This shows a complete lack of understanding or respect for the work that they *do* put in, just as much as their male counterparts. You might think the opinion is harmless, but really, if you're hiring someone for a job, and you have a female candidate and a male candidate who are comparable on paper, you might go with the male candidate if you think the female candidate got her grades simply through using sex and tears. There have been studies where they've given hiring people (and lay people) two resumes and cover letters - one with a woman's name and one with a man's name - and they tend to favour the male candidate. If they switch the names and nothing else about the resumes/cover letters, people will still favour the male candidate. And let's be realistic here - losing out on a job is going to cost far more than you paying a nominal sum for a dinner you can't attend. So yes, maybe it's not "fair" that you have to pay for someone else's dinner, but consider the larger injustices here. It's like taxes. On the face of it, it's not "fair" to take more money from the people who earn more to give it to those who earn less...but there are bigger injustices that need to be taken into consideration.
Last edited by starfish : 03-21-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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03-21-2014 at 08:01 PM
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#18
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Yea but it never said if females get to this "camp" for free or not. If it's only the professional development session just call up UofT. Males should be getting a professional development session too. Unless some other female role models are specifically going out of their way seperately outside this program to provide this to females in this program thers nothing you can do
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03-21-2014 at 08:11 PM
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#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeoku
Yea but it never said if females get to this "camp" for free or not. If it's only the professional development session just call up UofT. Males should be getting a professional development session too. Unless some other female role models are specifically going out of their way seperately outside this program to provide this to females in this program thers nothing you can do
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See, that is where I disagree. Given enough pressure, I hope UoT will be shame into stopping this plain sexism and starts heading toward equality.
I'm going to talk to the Dean next week and see if we can STOP supporting this plain sexist program. This should not even be communicated in mass email.
I already told the lady on the phone that I will do my best to discredit them for forcing me to pay for additional stuff that I am not allow to attend. I will pay for my stuff only. Female students should be the one that is charge additional fees for participating NOT the male students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by starfish
Is this an optional program, or required?
If this whole program (whatever it is with the $500 registration fee) is optional, then no, nobody is being "forced" to do anything. If you don't like the way it's run, you don't need to participate.
Also...qwerty91 didn't say feminism is bad...they said that the feminist movement will need to stop when equality is truly achieved. Big difference.
Besides, you obviously don't realize it, but women in engineering "pay" too. Not necessarily in a literal way, in the sense of paying money, but there is a cost to being one of few women in engineering - and this is a cost that men do not need to pay. And if you don't see that, then this thread might as well be shut down now, because this conversation isn't going to go anywhere. That is what underlies the equality movement (personally I prefer 'equality' to 'feminism').
One example of this "cost" - lack of respect. You stated earlier that women can get whatever marks they want without needing to work for them (I'm paraphrasing here ), simply because they're women. This shows a complete lack of understanding or respect for the work that they *do* put in, just as much as their male counterparts. You might think the opinion is harmless, but really, if you're hiring someone for a job, and you have a female candidate and a male candidate who are comparable on paper, you might go with the male candidate if you think the female candidate got her grades simply through using sex and tears. There have been studies where they've given hiring people (and lay people) two resumes and cover letters - one with a woman's name and one with a man's name - and they tend to favour the male candidate. If they switch the names and nothing else about the resumes/cover letters, people will still favour the male candidate. And let's be realistic here - losing out on a job is going to cost far more than you paying a nominal sum for a dinner you can't attend. So yes, maybe it's not "fair" that you have to pay for someone else's dinner, but consider the larger injustices here. It's like taxes. On the face of it, it's not "fair" to take more money from the people who earn more to give it to those who earn less...but there are bigger injustices that need to be taken into consideration.
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Look at it this way, its a barrier for equality. How many uproars will there be if female students get to pay less tuitions in engineering than their male counterpart? You can say that its not mandatory for them to come to engineering either and they should choose another program.
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03-21-2014 at 08:13 PM
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#20
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Well you should ask abit more about it. Who is running that professional development? Is it outside of the camp? Who is running this? Are they running this out of their own pocket for females or part of camp program? Be a bit more indepth in your reserach before you complain to the dean
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03-21-2014 at 08:43 PM
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#21
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Didn't you know that subsidizing women will always be a male privilege?
What truly frightens me is just how much capital universities are taking out of the pockets of male students and pumping in to various exclusively-female things. But I guess they know their target audience, considering most universities are close to a 60/40 M/F split.
But of course feminists, as proponents of equality, will never address the growing gap in male and female university attendance, they would much rather talk about how few girls there are in engineering, because women need an education in a field that they don't like but men don't deserve an education at all. But this isn't an issue that our university is concerned with, it has much more pressing tasks such as persecuting student groups that at some point in the past made some jokes that hurt women's feelings.
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03-21-2014 at 09:28 PM
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#22
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lmao youre complaining to the dean about this? really? it must be nice to live in a world where the worst discrimination you experience is not being entitled to a special lunch
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03-21-2014 at 11:28 PM
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#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyH
Didn't you know that subsidizing women will always be a male privilege?
What truly frightens me is just how much capital universities are taking out of the pockets of male students and pumping in to various exclusively-female things. But I guess they know their target audience, considering most universities are close to a 60/40 M/F split.
But of course feminists, as proponents of equality, will never address the growing gap in male and female university attendance, they would much rather talk about how few girls there are in engineering, because women need an education in a field that they don't like but men don't deserve an education at all. But this isn't an issue that our university is concerned with, it has much more pressing tasks such as persecuting student groups that at some point in the past made some jokes that hurt women's feelings.
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EXACTLY THIS! Wanna collaborate on a report to the Dean about this? You are much more eloquent than I am.
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03-22-2014 at 12:16 AM
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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HILLyBilly
See, that is where I disagree. Given enough pressure, I hope UoT will be shame into stopping this plain sexism and starts heading toward equality.
I'm going to talk to the Dean next week and see if we can STOP supporting this plain sexist program. This should not even be communicated in mass email.
I already told the lady on the phone that I will do my best to discredit them for forcing me to pay for additional stuff that I am not allow to attend. I will pay for my stuff only. Female students should be the one that is charge additional fees for participating NOT the male students.
Look at it this way, its a barrier for equality. How many uproars will there be if female students get to pay less tuitions in engineering than their male counterpart? You can say that its not mandatory for them to come to engineering either and they should choose another program.
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Clearly this hit a chord with you but seriously. You are choosing the wrong program (the uft thing) to put your anger against.
AS A MALE you GET LUNCH PAID FOR for the time you are there.
AS A FEMALE you GET LUNCH PAID FOR for the time you are there.
But one of those days the lunch is separated. The females are in a separate room where they probably have volunteer female engineering leaders promoting their fields.
Until you can PROVE UNCONDITIONALLY that the woman get anything better than the males (other than female guidance) then you have NO argument. If you can unconditionally prove it..well you might have a small argument but are you really gonna put up such a fuss over a paid for lunch (which you get a version of)?? Put your efforts elsewhere. There are bigger issues.
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03-22-2014 at 05:21 PM
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#25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoonbora
lmao youre complaining to the dean about this? really? it must be nice to live in a world where the worst discrimination you experience is not being entitled to a special lunch
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Who said anything about this being the worst discrimination he's faced? The fact is that an all male lunch would never be allowed, and these kinds of things crop up all the time. It's just one of many examples of acceptable sexism in today's society, regardless of if you think it's trivial, it still matters. Your attempts to brush it off and just ignore it are part of the problem but you don't realize it. Men face sexism all the time regarding issues even bigger than this and it's one of the reasons the men's rights movements is growing and demands to be taken seriously. The more we talk about it, the more people will finally start taking the blatant double standards against men in society seriously like we do for every single womens issue.
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03-22-2014 at 10:57 PM
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#26
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@Hillbilly, the way it's worded in the e-mail is poor, and does make it sound like there is a special free lunch where only woman can attend.
However, my guess would be that at the actual event it's more like what user 'Qwerty91' said, they most likely have a mentoring session geared toward woman where they bring in female mentors and successful females in the field to talk about their experiences as woman, etc. though I'm sure if you called up UoT and asked to join in on that session they wouldn't deny you. The lunch is probably free for everyone, it's just poorly worded marketing.
It should have been written more generally, saying there is a free mentoring lunch, and that successful woman leaders in the engineering field will be there to help answer any female-specific questions participants might have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HILLyBilly
Oh man. Seriously, even this forum code is sexist. You can say P but not V. Try it. *****. ******. SEE?
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There, the male organ word is now blocked too. All is fair and balanced in the forum now. (see reasoning in Section 4 of Code Of Conduct)
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03-23-2014 at 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Souldier
Who said anything about this being the worst discrimination he's faced? The fact is that an all male lunch would never be allowed, and these kinds of things crop up all the time. It's just one of many examples of acceptable sexism in today's society, regardless of if you think it's trivial, it still matters. Your attempts to brush it off and just ignore it are part of the problem but you don't realize it. Men face sexism all the time regarding issues even bigger than this and it's one of the reasons the men's rights movements is growing and demands to be taken seriously. The more we talk about it, the more people will finally start taking the blatant double standards against men in society seriously like we do for every single womens issue.
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i will never take men's rights seriously as long as it dedicates itself to tearing down any progress feminism makes. or do you not realize that the reason a special mentor lunch exists for women is because very few of the professors and TA's in engineering will be female, and it's important for women to have their own role models in a male-dominated field? which is, you know, an actual issue. if you can't see the fact that this lunch is just leveling the playing field because men have plenty of mentors BY DEFAULT i don't know what to tell you.
out of curiousity i googled some statistics for women in engineering programs. here is waterloo's, where you can see 13.4% of professors are women. here is u of t's report from 2011, showing 15.7% of faculty are women. here is mac's 2012-2013 factbook which shows 16 female faculty members to 141 male ones/10.2% female.
Last edited by yoonbora : 03-23-2014 at 04:30 PM.
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03-23-2014 at 04:16 PM
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#28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoonbora
i will never take men's rights seriously as long as it dedicates itself to tearing down any progress feminism makes. or do you not realize that the reason a special mentor lunch exists for women is because very few of the professors and TA's in engineering will be female, and it's important for women to have their own role models in a male-dominated field? which is, you know, an actual issue. if you can't see the fact that this lunch is just leveling the playing field because men have plenty of mentors BY DEFAULT i don't know what to tell you.
out of curiousity i googled some statistics for women in engineering programs. here is waterloo's, where you can see 13.4% of professors are women. here is u of t's report from 2011, showing 15.7% of faculty are women. here is mac's 2012-2013 factbook which shows 16 female faculty members to 141 male ones.
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Why would you not compare apples to apples? The Mac ratio is 16/157 = 10.2%.
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03-23-2014 at 04:28 PM
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#29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeM
Why would you not compare apples to apples? The Mac ratio is 16/157 = 10.2%.
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lol oh. thanks i added it in.
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03-23-2014 at 04:39 PM
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#30
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Ugh... What a thread.
First off: Too much attention is being paid to one lunch which is not likely exclusive, as Chad has pointed out. You could easily attend yourself, but I suspect you will enjoy your lunch with a million other male peers/mentors... Let the women in eng have a little bit of encouragement from their peer mentors who make them feel a little bit more comfortable.
Second: The comment, regarding women and, "an education in a field that they don't like" is so far off base. I just completed a year long inquiry into this topic; it's pretty safe to conclude that its stereotyping and cultural norms that have pushed females away from engineering --- not a natural distaste for the field of engineering and problem solving...
There is infinitely more energy going into this discussion than it deserves... Even if they did encourage males to simply attend the regular lunch and to stay out of the female-lunch while they hear from their mentors (which again, is an unlikely case), there are far bigger fish to fry; this is just a big waste of time.
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