I am doing this research under the supervision of Dr. Michael Veall. We are interested in how the McMaster Student Absence form is utilized by students at the university. You are being asked to take a survey about the McMaster Student Absence Form. The survey ought to take about 2 minutes to complete. The survey is completely anonymous, no ip address will be stored/no name will be required.
http://fluidsurveys.com/surveys/econ...-absence-form/

Please participate and be completely honest. This survey result will be used in next year petition for the removal of MSAF as mentioned in an earlier thread.

http://www.macinsiders.com/showthrea...5.html?t=75995

Avacado, i appreciate the comment, however it is completely false. This survey will not result in the removal of the msaf form.

Avacado has not stated that the poll will directly result in the removal of the form. He said it will be "used in next year petition for the removal of MSAF". Ie: he plans to use the poll results as a point when starting a separate petition to remove it.

It's a study by said student and said professor for a research point. Whether it is used as evidence at all hasn't been stated.

Originally Posted by Chad

Avacado has not stated that the poll will directly result in the removal of the form. He said it will be "used in next year petition for the removal of MSAF". Ie: he plans to use the poll results as a point when starting a separate petition to remove it.

and avacado is making the assumption that the research will support that particular petition. All i see is a statement that might deter individuals from responding.

Originally Posted by Chad

Avacado has not stated that the poll will directly result in the removal of the form. He said it will be "used in next year petition for the removal of MSAF". Ie: he plans to use the poll results as a point when starting a separate petition to remove it.

You are correct Chad.

I am curious about the result itself and how MSAF misuses correlate with grades. I do see tons of replies on the thread that abusers should be left alone since there is no advantage in the end, but its still speculative.

I don't understand why a student would want to petition removing MSAF?... if you don't like it, don't use it. Why must you ruin things for everyone else?

Originally Posted by SweetyTweety

I don't understand why a student would want to petition removing MSAF?... if you don't like it, don't use it. Why must you ruin things for everyone else?

Because many people who don't misuse it feel they're being put at a disadvantage by not cheating, and that's not fair. Some people also feel it devalues their degree.

Eg, you and the rest of your program have two midterms on the same day. some people MSAF one of them (not because they're sick) and then are able to do really well on the other one, even though it was academically dishonest. The academically honest people who wrote both rather than cheating their way out of one are at a disadvantage.

That's generally why people have issues with MSAF. You shouldn't be able to pick and choose which parts of your degree that you need to complete.

I guarantee you, if this little petition does get taken seriously and msaf is no more, the person behind it will be very much disliked.
It just feels good to know that students have something like msaf to fall back on, whether they choose to use it or not.
This is actually my favourite thing about mcmaster - that they genuinely care about their students.

I don't believe there is such a thing as "misusing msaf" because given only 1 per term means that students will not use msaf unless they absolutely need to.
Even if it is due to not being able to hand an assignment in on time because you have 3 other assignments due in the same week and you choose to msaf - this is helping students de-stress.
... pulling too many all-nighters and dealing with this kind of stress can lead to mental and physical health problems, not to mention depression.

So to those students who are "academically honest", as you imply, they need to know that not everyone is on the same academic level as them, not everyone has their mental capacity or their endurance, and not everyone can handle it sometimes.

I came close to using msaf this semester, but managed to challenge myself to finish the assignment on time, but the only thing that got me through it was knowing that even if I wasn't able to, I could msaf it, and I would still be okay. I would have killed me and distracted me much more, thinking of how many percentages I would lose per day for every day i didn't have the assignment handed in.

Another thing is, and this may come as a shock to you, but a lot of students actually do use msaf for medical reasons. it may not be an emergency or something serious, but there are students who have to commute 2 hours a day to get to campus - when you have a minor illness like the flu, and you don't plan on staying for any other class besides the one you have to hand in an assignment for, spending about 5 hours out of bed just to go to hamilton to hand your paper in, seems like a terrible thing. If you could msaf and stay in bed long enough to feel better, you'd do it, too.

The final reason why msaf should remain is because using it doesn't give anyone an advantage. It's not like msafing a test or assignment means getting a 100% on it, either you still have to do the paper, just a few days later, or you have to work extra hard in the rest of the course to be able to do well.

Originally Posted by SweetyTweety

I guarantee you, if this little petition does get taken seriously and msaf is no more, the person behind it will be very much disliked.
It just feels good to know that students have something like msaf to fall back on, whether they choose to use it or not.
This is actually my favourite thing about mcmaster - that they genuinely care about their students.
This isn't caring about their students. They do this because it's easier for them, don't delude yourself.

I don't believe there is such a thing as "misusing msaf" because given only 1 per term means that students will not use msaf unless they absolutely need to.
Even if it is due to not being able to hand an assignment in on time because you have 3 other assignments due in the same week and you choose to msaf - this is helping students de-stress.
... pulling too many all-nighters and dealing with this kind of stress can lead to mental and physical health problems, not to mention depression.
The MSAF is not an effective way of helping students de-stress. The university in general really needs to get their shit together with regards to students' mental health, but the MSAF isn't the answer.

So to those students who are "academically honest", as you imply, they need to know that not everyone is on the same academic level as them, not everyone has their mental capacity or their endurance, and not everyone can handle it sometimes.
Not being able to handle it doesn't give you the right to be academically dishonest. If you can't handle it, you need to figure your life out. Maybe you need time off to deal with other stuff going on in your life, maybe university isn't for you, maybe you just need to take the hit. My last year was my absolute worst year in terms of mental health, the courseload I was taking (one course in particular actually) was a large contributing factor. First, that doesn't say anything about my mental capacity or academic level, and second, the MSAF wouldn't have helped me any.

I came close to using msaf this semester, but managed to challenge myself to finish the assignment on time, but the only thing that got me through it was knowing that even if I wasn't able to, I could msaf it, and I would still be okay. I would have killed me and distracted me much more, thinking of how many percentages I would lose per day for every day i didn't have the assignment handed in.
And how well does that prepare you for the rest of your life? I'm at a school now that doesn't have the MSAF and often I wish they did just so that it was there if I needed it (not that I ever used it at Mac either), but it really wouldn't serve me well in terms of life preparation, and it's probably better that they don't have it.

Another thing is, and this may come as a shock to you, but a lot of students actually do use msaf for medical reasons. it may not be an emergency or something serious, but there are students who have to commute 2 hours a day to get to campus - when you have a minor illness like the flu, and you don't plan on staying for any other class besides the one you have to hand in an assignment for, spending about 5 hours out of bed just to go to hamilton to hand your paper in, seems like a terrible thing. If you could msaf and stay in bed long enough to feel better, you'd do it, too.
Yes, people do use it for medical reasons. I'd be surprised though if that number was even as high as 50%. It's not like you would need to come to campus to get a doctor's note if you're sick, you can go to any doctor. Second, having to commute a long time to get to campus is no excuse - it states clearly in university policy that you are responsible for getting yourself to the university, regardless of where you choose to live.

The final reason why msaf should remain is because using it doesn't give anyone an advantage. It's not like msafing a test or assignment means getting a 100% on it, either you still have to do the paper, just a few days later, or you have to work extra hard in the rest of the course to be able to do well.
It does give some people an advantage, if you use it "smartly". If you don't, then it probably puts you at a disadvantage. But it makes sure that people aren't on the same level.

I added my comments in in bold, figured it would make more sense that way.

My own personal view on the MSAF is this:

I stated above (in one of my bolded comments) that the school I'm currently at doesn't have MSAF. Well, you can still "petition" with a doctor's note or whatever, or if you have a family issue or even a bad break-up with a significant other. The thing is, any time you petition, you need to pay $70 to make up whatever it is you missed. They say it's an "invigilator fee", which is fine for tests, but it also applies if you hand in an assignment late or if the weight gets moved to your exam or whatever. I think that's ridiculous. If you have a legit reason, you shouldn't be punished further by having to pay $70 for each thing that you miss.

I think Mac should have an administrative fee or something similar when you use the MSAF. If you submit a doctor's note or some other proof, no fee. That's not a perfect solution either and there are definitely arguments for why it's a bad idea, but I do think we need some sort of incentive to prevent students from abusing it.

Your arguments make no sense to me, and they sound too forced.
For example, "you need to get your shit together" and "maybe university is not for you" are not valid arguments.

...and you don't even go to mac?

I'm done responding to you.

Originally Posted by SweetyTweety

Your arguments make no sense to me, and they sound too forced.
For example, "you need to get your shit together" and "maybe university is not for you" are not valid arguments.

...and you don't even go to mac?

I'm done responding to you.

Lol I went to Mac for longer than you have. And I said the university needs to get its shit together wrt mental health issues. Not individual people. As a student with mental health issues, I've experienced time and time again how administrative staff and professors can contribute to these types of problems, and it's mostly a lack of understanding.

I don't really care whether or not you think they're valid arguments, because those are arguments that people use. People think other people's arguments are invalid all the time, that doesn't stop them from using them

You asked a general question and I answered it generally. Not all of the views presented were my own (though I do agree with some, I don't see the need to differentiate). I put my own views at the bottom of my post.

If it's easier for you to dismiss the arguments as invalid then fine, that's probably where your question was coming from in the first place.

I think its cute that some people here think they can get MSAF removed.

A couple years back when MSAF became MSAF from the H1N1 tool, I asked at the associate dean's office as to what was preventing students from lying about their condition on MSAF and using it, the person there said that students can pay at any walk in clinic and get a doctor's note. And they cannot not accept the note even if the note says that the student had a headache. So MSAF keeps things simple for them and the students.

Last year a friend of mine walked in to his prof's office and told them he couldn't write one of his midterms as he couldn't prepare for it in time. He was told to fill the MSAF by the prof and the prof didn't see anything wrong in filling the MSAF as he was of the opinion that writing midterm was an easy way to score in the course.

If you consider it cheating and if somehow you were able to get it removed (which is not going to happen), people will always find another way to "cheat". It'll take a bit more effort, but it'll happen.

Some people are just control freaks who don't want the world to do anything they don't like.