Hey guys,

I wanted to get some of your thoughts on this.

http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/mcmaster-university-withdraw-the-discriminatory-policies-towards-engineering-students-which-infringe-on-the-rights-of-canadian-students



Additional information:
As it stands now, the SSC is planning engineering welcome week, and picking reps based on a resume style application. This is in contrast to the very in depth process that the Orientation Committee has used every year for MANY years to make sure the best roll models are chosen. Also, no previous reps (from the last two years) are allowed to participate.

Any reps chosen by the SSC will not be allowed to wear red jumpsuits.

I think the people who wrote that need to read the Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. None of their legal rights have been violated, and the ability to serve alcohol at Kipling (for example) is not a legally protected right. No student has been tried in court and found "guilty" as they claim in the petition.

I don't support the sanctions against the redsuits (and note that requiring them to follow school policy doesn't count as a sanction), but that petition is full of hyperbole and fallacies.

At *most* they could make a case for the school's actions violating university policy. You start talking about discrimination and it becomes a legal issue.

I agree, the petition could definitely be improved. I think the point is to make McMaster aware of how unreasonable they are being.

At this point, my biggest concern is for the incoming first years. By taking over, and not allowing the Engineers to plan their welcome week, pick their own reps, (or even allow previous reps to volunteer), the university is essentially punishing new students for the actions of students that have already graduated.

That's the worst part of this.

Signing the petition does nothing imo. We should boycott the SSC organized welcome week by refusing to apply as reps for next year. Or just do something instead of crying on the internet.

edit: I take that back, but still we need to do more. I can't imagine a future without redsuits.

CBC Picked up the story.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...tion-1.2558215

Immediate thoughts: If they wanted to be super official/serious with this thing, they could have at least bothered to get That vs. Which right in the petition title.

And yeah, they clearly don't understand the definition of "discrimination." I agree that disallowing previous reps is too harsh and detrimental to the Welcome Week experience of next year's new Eng students, but the petition really needs to be written better, content-wise. Preferably by someone who has better knowledge of school policies and isn't going to throw around controversial words for the sake of stirring people up.

I think the line that gets sent to the University admin is the main point that people don't have an issue with:

To:
McMaster University, Dr. Patrick Deane
Dr. David Wilkinson, McMaster University Provost
Dr. Ishwar K. Puri, Dean of Engineering
David Campbell, McMaster Student Union
Michelle Donovan, McMaster Public Relations

I support the serious working relationship between student leaders and the University; the fair treatment of all engineering students; or the elimination of discrimination between Faculties.

Reconsider your on-going working relationship with the Engineering student society (the MES), and support the continuity of their most valued services, even if you must keep a close eye on their planning and execution while an external investigation is ongoing.

Sincerely,
[Your name]

The fact of the matter is, our Faculty won't even plan Kipling FOR US, let alone work with us to plan it in an acceptable manner. It's not about "safety" or the reputation of the student society, as they have been telling students who send them an e-mail... I don't know what it is, but some might say it's an ego thing, because I'll be damned if they ever apologize or clarify the situation, even after an investigation is completed.

Originally Posted by panici

CBC Picked up the story.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...tion-1.2558215

That hurt the petition's credibility even more. The guy who started it claims the book was put together in 2010. I know for a fact it was around in 2008 when I started at Mac, because I remember it from Welcome Week. And I have serious doubts about his claim that most students knew nothing about it. I wasn't even in engineering, and I was well aware of it.

Again, I don't support the heavy sanctions, but these people really don't seem to be helping the cause. Anyone with half a brain to use for critical thinking can see the outrageousness of the claims in the petition, and he's just proving that he has no idea what he's actually talking about.

As for the line getting sent to the admin people, it's pretty flimsy as well. Doesn't have anything to substantiate or explain their requests. As far as the admin is concerned, they ARE trying to promote fair treatment of all engineering students, and it's easier for them to cancel the events and/or totally cut the redsuits out than it is for them to closely supervise it. The petition should explain WHY these events are essential and how the admin's decisions are negatively impacting the student body.

Originally Posted by starfish

That hurt the petition's credibility even more. The guy who started it claims the book was put together in 2010. I know for a fact it was around in 2008 when I started at Mac, because I remember it from Welcome Week. And I have serious doubts about his claim that most students knew nothing about it. I wasn't even in engineering, and I was well aware of it.

Again, I don't support the heavy sanctions, but these people really don't seem to be helping the cause. Anyone with half a brain to use for critical thinking can see the outrageousness of the claims in the petition, and he's just proving that he has no idea what he's actually talking about.

As for the line getting sent to the admin people, it's pretty flimsy as well. Doesn't have anything to substantiate or explain their requests. As far as the admin is concerned, they ARE trying to promote fair treatment of all engineering students, and it's easier for them to cancel the events and/or totally cut the redsuits out than it is for them to closely supervise it. The petition should explain WHY these events are essential and how the admin's decisions are negatively impacting the student body.

The "songbook" was created in 2009/10. It says so right on the book and 3/4 people who wrote it were in first year at the time as well (it says that as well...and I know them). Some of the (not so bad) chants are certainly common knowledge...but thats verbal knowledge.

As for knowledge of the songbook...none of my friends in eng knew about it. Many of them redsuits. Its not some redsuit handbook, nor has it EVER been distributed. My guess is that it was the creative portion of the Eng Welcome Week Rep tryout application for that specific group (they chose to make the book). It somehow got online and BAM every engineer is thrown under the bus.

Yes the petition could have been worded better. But McMaster started their investigation into the events and songbook the same day they cancelled all events. They punished all engineers for the actions of a select few. Even the graduation formal has no alcohol (no wine with dinner? or celebratory glass of champagne?)

The best metaphor I can come up with is this: A single person on the Mac football team from 4 years ago was caught using steroids on camera. As such the entire Mac football team today is now disbanded, the coach (who wasnt coach back then) is fired and next year Mac puts together a new football team but refuses to take input from anyone involved with Mac Athletics.

Even if you cant believe redsuits had nothing to do this...ALL engineers cannot be guilty...and neither can the incoming first years who will now have their welcome week run by people with zero experience (because all those with experienced are banned....including our elected student soc)

If you read my posts, you'll see that I am rather strongly against the sanctions. I do *not* believe that what the university is doing is "right". But, I also think this is a rather poor way of trying to fix it, and I made some suggestions as to how they could make the petition better.

I was handed a physical copy of the book in September, 2008 - regardless of the year that is now written on it. Maybe that's when they decided to distribute it more widely, but a friend in first-year engineering received a copy from the redsuits and showed it to me a couple of nights later, during Welcome Week. She pointed out the ones that they sang on the bus to Faculty Night.

If it was part of the creative component of the application, would there be some sort of record of it? Does MES keep track of applications in such a way? Maybe someone should suggest that the University look to those responsible, rather than the whole faculty?

Originally Posted by starfish

If it was part of the creative component of the application, would there be some sort of record of it? Does MES keep track of applications in such a way? Maybe someone should suggest that the University look to those responsible, rather than the whole faculty?

Its my guess it was a rep application. Likely, but not guaranteed. I have no idea what the record keeping practices of Rep applications are...but I doubt it. And from what I understand the MES has tried very hard to communicate with the university but has basically been told to shove off.

Originally Posted by qwerty91

Its my guess it was a rep application. Likely, but not guaranteed. I have no idea what the record keeping practices of Rep applications are...but I doubt it. And from what I understand the MES has tried very hard to communicate with the university but has basically been told to shove off.

MES seems a bit overly dramatic in this matter, as evidence in this petition. I would take what they say with a grain of salt.

The MES is not behind this petition.

None the less, the MES does have very real concerns. I don't think you appreciate your most valued services being taken away from you if you think the engineering society is being over dramatic in its concerns for its ability to govern and function according to its mission.

Originally Posted by qwerty91

Its my guess it was a rep application. Likely, but not guaranteed. I have no idea what the record keeping practices of Rep applications are...but I doubt it. And from what I understand the MES has tried very hard to communicate with the university but has basically been told to shove off.

Sorry I don't think I worded my questions quite right - I know it's just a guess on your part, but if the MES keeps records it should be pretty easy for them to check whether or not your guess is correct. They wouldn't need the university's permission to check their own records, and if they do find something, then that could be brought to the attention of the school's admin people.

It would be nice if we had a student union that would try to support the MES in maintaining key activities and functions for the student body, and would advocate in the interests of all of the students being punished through no fault of their own. /sarcasm
Seriously though...they would probably be much more effective than this petition.

Fact: The MES President (incoming and outgoing ones) have put more effort into trying to work with the University in the past few weeks, to maintain the integrity and the mission of the MES, than some students at this school have put into their education this entire year --- not to mention, they're maintaining their own course loads. Bravo on their part.

There is no record of these past applications. The administration (and many students) fail to realize that student leadership is extremely short lived, and students don't often hold a position for more than 8-12 months.

Then again, the administration fails to realize a whole lot, it seems.