Originally Posted by jaywa

Why is everyone freaking out so much over that one point in the platform?

Because there is absolutely no need for that

And spiritual isn't the same as religious... ctfd.

Read her previous post: "Ever since 2004, a spiritual centre for those with/without faith has been a hotly debated topic. It's a need to enhance student life on campus, allow them time to ponder and reflect while an opportunity for peaceful dialogue to take place. It doesn't have to be a large space, a sitting area and a small library would do it. In addition, as the MSU Diversity Services Director and after numerous conversations I've had with the different faith-based groups on campus, they would really appreciate such an initiative. If there are many students on campus who wish to see this happen, think of spirituality as a fundamental aspect of their lives as students and the space can allocated, then I think this is a valuable objective to pursue."

spiritual doesn't mean religious

Originally Posted by TrinidadTT

It seems a little too obvious that this "spiritual centre" is focused at getting a muslim prayer room on campus. I think we can all agree that this is not needed at all & people can pray at home. University space is limited and frankly, the focus should be on getting one of these libraries on campus to be open 24/7. It's ridiculous with midterms coming up that none of the libraries are open late. As well, I agree there is no need to support minority causes on campus as we need to look at the bigger picture and support causes that the majority of people agree upon. Even though the MSU is flawed, I'd probably vote for Brodka.

yeah, it is a little thinly veiled isn't it?

it's rude and ignorant to assume that just because the candidate wears a hijab, her idea of a spiritual centre automatically means a muslim prayer room. it's wrong to assume that the spiritual centre is solely being proposed as an amenity for muslim students. She never said that (nor has anyone else in this thread as a matter of fact other than the people who are opposed to the idea). She said that she's consulted many students and many have expressed an interest in the idea of a spiritual centre. Spiritual Centres can be used for prayer, silent meditation, peaceful contemplation etc. (you get the idea).

For those that are arguing that a spiritual centre is not a common want, I implore that you at least back your opinion up with some statistical research rather than just your own and your friends' ideologies. If she says that students have told her that this is what they want, then I think it's only respectful to take her word for it unless your own research suggests otherwise. I'm not even religious and I would appreciate having a quite, peaceful place ON campus where I can just sit and contemplate and not have something going on around me.

I think this 'spiritual centre' (or call it 'peace' or 'quiet' centre if you may) is a great idea and one that everyone could benefit from. This is one among many other good ideas in her platform which I believe compared to the other candidates' platforms is the most practical.

Now that another candidate has been brought into this 'discussion', I feel the need to point out the flaws in his platform. Brodka's affordable academic tutoring idea is flawed logistically; if you do the math the cost will be too much for the MSU to support alone. The freedom credit idea is intended well but another logistical nightmare. When students are packed with the coursework of 5 tough courses, which one will they decide to not bother with? Oh yeah: the freedom credit one. Ultimately, it will not serve the purpose it's meant to serve. Frost week upgrade? Not even going to bother humouring that point. Yes, the MSU should always aim to provide funner excursions but I don't think that should be a platform point. It should be a given. The participatory budget project seems to me like another logistical nightmare with 20,000 students' opinions to cater to (in the span of two school terms anyway).
Please tell me why you defaulted to Brodka when you weren't entirely pleased with Israa's platform?

Originally Posted by qamarh

I think it's rude and very ignorant to assume that just because the candidate wears a hijab, her idea of a spiritual centre automatically means a muslim prayer room. I think it's wrong to assume that the spiritual centre is solely being proposed as an amenity for muslim students. She never said that (nor has anyone else in this thread as a matter of fact other than the people who are opposed to the idea). She said that she's consulted many students and many have expressed an interest in the idea of a spiritual centre. Spiritual Centres can be used for prayer, silent meditation, peaceful contemplation etc. (you get the idea).

For those that are arguing that a spiritual centre is not a common want, I implore that you at least back your opinion up with some statistical research rather than just your own and your friends' ideologies. If she says that students have told her that this is what they want, then I think it's only respectful to take her word for it unless your own research suggests otherwise. I'm not even religious and I would appreciate having a quite, peaceful place ON campus where I can just sit and contemplate and not have something going on around me.

In formal debate, the onus is upon the one putting forth a notion to back up evidence for it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that 'there is not significant need for a spiritual centre, as other faiths have never openly required a space'. This is very simple logic; it is up to the proposer to provide research or evidence for a positive notion. (i.e. Ali)

I really don't understand why is this "spiritual space" being interpreted as a prayer room for muslim students. I am surprised to see people don't seem to know that religion and spirituality are two different things. You don't have to be religious to be spiritual. instead a lot of the people who call themselves spiritual are those that have no faith or are not religious per se. And muslims have to pray five times a day at fixed hours, so no! you can't pray at home when you have class all day long. I personally would love a room or place to just simply sit and contemplate, the times when you don't feel like talking to anyone and want to be alone. I don't think a "hijabi" girl knowing the diverse nature of McMaster community, would vouch for a prayer room or a spiritual space just for muslims, knowing how much people would speculate the issue regardless. It's sad some people think that this platform point is "thinly veiled", and yet we like to believe we are not judgemental :(

If you didn't already know, there is a room in thode basement, MDCL lobby and an area in Mills that people use to pray, so I don't think this point is referring to "getting a room on campus for muslim prayers".

Originally Posted by science002

If you didn't already know, there is a room in thode basement, MDCL lobby and an area in Mills that people use to pray, so I don't think this point is referring to "getting a room on campus for muslim prayers".

Then why not change one of those "prayer rooms" into a spiritual centre? I've been to many universities in North America & frankly a common observation that has been seen is that a "spiritual centre" is needed for the satisfaction of certain minorities on campus. Whether it be York University, Western, Rutgers, Yale, Northwestern, there is a demand by certain populations to have these rooms so they can have a sense of spirituality. After a certain time, you will see this place turned into a full prayer room with friday's being insanely crowded & loud, defeating the purpose of the spirituality centre. At one point in time, I've supported a creation of a prayer room for everyone but in the end it becomes the central location for muslim prayers & this is not worth the MSU's time and money to build this. As for the other candidates, they all have their flaws but the only candidate with potential from my view is Brodka.

trinidad james is right on this one.

qq, r there some prayer rooms that don't allow women, or have women stay at the back? just curious if this could potentially become a problem for the room. I saw a docu once that had this, but not sure if it is still practised or not, only asking because of practicality.

Originally Posted by science002

I really don't understand why is this "spiritual space" being interpreted as a prayer room for muslim students. I am surprised to see people don't seem to know that religion and spirituality are two different things. You don't have to be religious to be spiritual. instead a lot of the people who call themselves spiritual are those that have no faith or are not religious per se. And muslims have to pray five times a day at fixed hours, so no! you can't pray at home when you have class all day long. I personally would love a room or place to just simply sit and contemplate, the times when you don't feel like talking to anyone and want to be alone. I don't think a "hijabi" girl knowing the diverse nature of McMaster community, would vouch for a prayer room or a spiritual space just for muslims, knowing how much people would speculate the issue regardless. It's sad some people think that this platform point is "thinly veiled", and yet we like to believe we are not judgemental :(

I really don't understand why you don't bother reading what this candidate has said earlier in this thread.
She specifically mentions that "people with faith" would appreciate having a spiritual center.
Since when was "faith" not a religious terminology? Use a different word, if you wish, but that doesn't change Israa Ali's original intention.

Also, I don't really like stereotypes, but I think it's perfectly normal for most people to interpret this spiritual center as a Muslim prayer room.
Most of my relatives & many of my friends are christians, so I know for a fact that having a special "prayer room" is meaningless to christians. On the other hand, I also know some people who are Muslim, and I know that they need this special place to do their rituals and prayers.
I'm sure that MANY students aren't willing to pay their tuition to have these extra features at school.

Why do we even need this special place on campus? Let the school be used for its real purpose.

Originally Posted by onedayy

Why do we even need this special place on campus? Let the school be used for its real purpose.

That brings up a great question. What is the school's real purpose, and how will the pres work with regards to it?

There is a TON of identity politics this year in the election. Is it relevant? perhaps.
I think it reflects the change from a critical institution like that of the 60s, to a post-modern neo-liberal job training centre myself...
is the MSU now HR?

Originally Posted by onedayy

I'm sure that MANY students aren't willing to pay their tuition to have these extra features at school.

Why do we even need this special place on campus? Let the school be used for its real purpose.

She said her idea is "strategic space allocation". She's not doing anything with our money to construct a new place to pray. She's simply suggesting allocating space already there that is not used and using it as a "spiritual centre."

Thank you all for the feedback, I will ensure to take your input into consideration.

I have further clarified the points here: https://www.facebook.com/CreatingS20...720434937630:0

Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns!

thank you for coming to the veritable minefield for candidates that is Macinsiders, that takes courage b/c of how few filters and lack of message/talking point control is available - and a lot of other candidates did not do it. That in itself proves something important about your character and lends me to believe you have something in you that can persevere.

Israa,

I've read your point about the spirituality center on Facebook, but I don't really see the need for it. I see why "spiritual" people may feel they WANT this space, but everything you have proposed is already offered through various clubs and the events and meetings that they run.

One thing that confuses me is that you are planning to offer prayer and meditation in the same space as inter-faith debate and discussion. I'm having a very hard time trying to picture all of these things happening in the same space, wouldn't the meditators be annoyed by the debaters?

And how would all this discussion be moderated anyway? How would you separate those who want to be part of a lively inter-faith discussion and those who just want to pray, or want to have an INTRA-faith discussion with some of their friends? I feel like numerous human rights complaints could arise from this spirituality center, and I'm not just saying that to be cynical or to shit on the idea, I really mean it. Many of the people who would use this center would not be open to hearing certain criticisms and they may lash out (literally or figuratively) if they continually are hearing things which offend them.

Since I started at Mac in 2007 I've seen many different iterations of this idea. When it's proposed as a Muslim prayer space, people bitch about inclusiveness (usually with a xenophobic undercurrent). But when the idea becomes too inclusive it fails to accommodate Muslim students' prayer rituals.

So why not just create a Muslim prayer space? People who want to have spritual discussions or meditate quietly have many ways to do so on campus, but Muslim students actually do require some accommodation in order to observe their faith. Sure, there may be some orthodox followers of other religions who require a space as well, but I'm guessing that's a very small number that can be accommodated on a case-by-case basis.

Thanks Israa!

For everyone else, I would like to point out the stupidity in claiming that "this is an idea for a minority so the the MSU shouldn't do it!" If you bothered to check you would realize that most of what the MSU does is serve minorities. SWHAT is for a minority, should we get rid of SWHAT? Same goes for QSCC, should we do away with that? How about the EMS service? There's no way the majority of students will use that in their time here.
I realize that accommodation can be taken to extremes so we can't be absolutists, but I think some people need to check themselves on the issue of a Muslim prayer space.