Originally Posted by samd

Israa,

I've read your point about the spirituality center on Facebook, but I don't really see the need for it. I see why "spiritual" people may feel they WANT this space, but everything you have proposed is already offered through various clubs and the events and meetings that they run.

One thing that confuses me is that you are planning to offer prayer and meditation in the same space as inter-faith debate and discussion. I'm having a very hard time trying to picture all of these things happening in the same space, wouldn't the meditators be annoyed by the debaters?

And how would all this discussion be moderated anyway? How would you separate those who want to be part of a lively inter-faith discussion and those who just want to pray, or want to have an INTRA-faith discussion with some of their friends? I feel like numerous human rights complaints could arise from this spirituality center, and I'm not just saying that to be cynical or to shit on the idea, I really mean it. Many of the people who would use this center would not be open to hearing certain criticisms and they may lash out (literally or figuratively) if they continually are hearing things which offend them.

Since I started at Mac in 2007 I've seen many different iterations of this idea. When it's proposed as a Muslim prayer space, people bitch about inclusiveness (usually with a xenophobic undercurrent). But when the idea becomes too inclusive it fails to accommodate Muslim students' prayer rituals.

So why not just create a Muslim prayer space? People who want to have spritual discussions or meditate quietly have many ways to do so on campus, but Muslim students actually do require some accommodation in order to observe their faith. Sure, there may be some orthodox followers of other religions who require a space as well, but I'm guessing that's a very small number that can be accommodated on a case-by-case basis.

Thanks Israa!

For everyone else, I would like to point out the stupidity in claiming that "this is an idea for a minority so the the MSU shouldn't do it!" If you bothered to check you would realize that most of what the MSU does is serve minorities. SWHAT is for a minority, should we get rid of SWHAT? Same goes for QSCC, should we do away with that? How about the EMS service? There's no way the majority of students will use that in their time here.
I realize that accommodation can be taken to extremes so we can't be absolutists, but I think some people need to check themselves on the issue of a Muslim prayer space.

One of the challenges with even considering any space of this sort is the landlocked status of McMaster, I've heard these debates about the intermingling and space booking challenges and conflicts and so on. In an ideal world a campus could potentially have this variety of offerings http://www.multifaith.utoron to.ca/...yer-Spaces.htm

Originally Posted by samd

Israa,

I've read your point about the spirituality center on Facebook, but I don't really see the need for it. I see why "spiritual" people may feel they WANT this space, but everything you have proposed is already offered through various clubs and the events and meetings that they run.

One thing that confuses me is that you are planning to offer prayer and meditation in the same space as inter-faith debate and discussion. I'm having a very hard time trying to picture all of these things happening in the same space, wouldn't the meditators be annoyed by the debaters?

And how would all this discussion be moderated anyway? How would you separate those who want to be part of a lively inter-faith discussion and those who just want to pray, or want to have an INTRA-faith discussion with some of their friends? I feel like numerous human rights complaints could arise from this spirituality center, and I'm not just saying that to be cynical or to shit on the idea, I really mean it. Many of the people who would use this center would not be open to hearing certain criticisms and they may lash out (literally or figuratively) if they continually are hearing things which offend them.

Since I started at Mac in 2007 I've seen many different iterations of this idea. When it's proposed as a Muslim prayer space, people bitch about inclusiveness (usually with a xenophobic undercurrent). But when the idea becomes too inclusive it fails to accommodate Muslim students' prayer rituals.

So why not just create a Muslim prayer space? People who want to have spritual discussions or meditate quietly have many ways to do so on campus, but Muslim students actually do require some accommodation in order to observe their faith. Sure, there may be some orthodox followers of other religions who require a space as well, but I'm guessing that's a very small number that can be accommodated on a case-by-case basis.

Thanks Israa!

For everyone else, I would like to point out the stupidity in claiming that "this is an idea for a minority so the the MSU shouldn't do it!" If you bothered to check you would realize that most of what the MSU does is serve minorities. SWHAT is for a minority, should we get rid of SWHAT? Same goes for QSCC, should we do away with that? How about the EMS service? There's no way the majority of students will use that in their time here.
I realize that accommodation can be taken to extremes so we can't be absolutists, but I think some people need to check themselves on the issue of a Muslim prayer space.

I second what samd said.
The chances are this so called spiritual center is going to end up being a muslim place anyways - many excellent points are made by samd to support this.

Israa i think u need to stop shying away from it and just call it a Muslim prayer room so that many people don't have to be confused about its purpose.

All this talk about religion and space, but doesn't MSU have other problems to solve? Problems that cover everybody and not just a specific group of students?

Just sayin'

Those are some very interesting comments, thank you so much everyone. It really is valuable to hear all these different perspectives.

I would like to bring everyone's attention to the fact that there are 11 other points on my platform which I would love to engage further on as well, which do actually address a variety of issues on campus.

With regards to the spirituality space idea specifically, I feel we definitely need to look at the concept of equity. Different students have different needs and should be accommodated accordingly. For the past few weeks I have been engaging in conversations with students over this idea and it's actually quite appealing to most, of whom many who don't belong to a certain faith but rather wish to have a space dedicated for more insight and learning onto faith and an opportunity to practice faith for those who are faith-based, that's public and always accessible. The beautiful concept behind this idea is that anyone would be welcome at any time to sit, learn, pray, read etc. The facilitation of the space can be easily managed after further consultation.

If elected however, I will NOT go ahead with the project unless the students truly want to see it happen. I've already thought of some possibly ideas for where the space itself may be, however the manifestation of the project itself will not proceed unless students agree. As I have mentioned earlier and would like to emphasize further:

We can develop focus groups and research further before establishing the base for a spirituality centre and assess student interest to ensure optimal student satisfaction before moving forward with the project, after all we do want to cater to the needs of the majority of students at least. Despite the fact that I have strongly sensed the need for this space from many groups on campus, I do think it would be a healthy step to receive further feedback before proceeding.

Furthermore everyone, please do look beyond the fact that I am a Muslim woman running. Before any label placed on me, I am running for this position for only one sake, to enhance student life on campus and ensure their needs are not only addressed but also met within a timely manner. I have the qualifications and firmly believe in the feasibility of my platform points. I want to make a positive difference in this university, but only collectively we'll be able to do that.

I look forward to hearing any further thoughts from you all.

@samd

If you bring up the idea of a muslim prayer space, then you will have other religious groups saying they want their own prayer space. As a Hindu, I know I would demand it and so would Christian, Buddhist, etc. even though we don't need it. It creates unnecessary chaos and anger between religious groups and it's not worth the MSU's time (this is coming from experience at my time at Northwestern University in Chicago). Frankly, it's best to scrap the idea of spiritual space and continue to emphasize your other platform points. You will definitely get more votes if you do that but either way good luck to all candidates.

Earlier, there was a comment here with regards to my identity. I have responded publicly to eliminate any further discrimination from taking place:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...146 271561713

This campaign period thus far had been quite a rewarding experience and I thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I voted for you Israa!
You are more than just the Muslim woman who wants a spiritual centre, you have plenty of great ideas, solid experience with the MSU and I think you would make a great president.

Originally Posted by TrinidadTT

@samd

If you bring up the idea of a muslim prayer space, then you will have other religious groups saying they want their own prayer space. As a Hindu, I know I would demand it and so would Christian, Buddhist, etc. even though we don't need it. It creates unnecessary chaos and anger between religious groups and it's not worth the MSU's time (this is coming from experience at my time at Northwestern University in Chicago). Frankly, it's best to scrap the idea of spiritual space and continue to emphasize your other platform points. You will definitely get more votes if you do that but either way good luck to all candidates.

Completely agree. I dont get why people are trying to impede the campus atmosphere with religious beliefs. There are religious temples/churches/mosques etc. for you to express your religious beliefs. The university campus is a place for people of different backgrounds to become one blended community where we can grow as people. I personally dont think that the university should have any association with religion. This is mainly due to the fact that if you build one space for people of a certain religion or beliefs, then that opens the flood gates to demands from anyone claiming that they need a space of their own to practice their beliefs. Academic education and religious education are two separate entities, and therefore i believe it best to keep them separate from each other in our campus.

Originally Posted by BenDover

Completely agree. I dont get why people are trying to impede the campus atmosphere with religious beliefs.

Religious beliefs are already on campus and are already part of the campus atmosphere for many people. A Muslim prayer space wouldn't "bring Islam to Mac" it would simply provide some accommodation for the many Muslim students who are already here. Mac is as much a Muslim uni as it is a Christian, Hindu, Jewish or atheist uni.

The difference between Islam and most other faiths represented on campus is that Muslims believe they are required to perform a specific prayer ritual at various points throughout the day (I believe it's 5 but I could be wrong). It would not be convenient for them to venture off campus to find a suitable space for this prayer, even Muslims who live on campus or near campus find it difficult. Furthermore we have a large number of Muslim students who share these beliefs and require a space.

We should accommodate those who require accommodation and everyone else can grow up and shut up. We already have numerous all-inclusive spaces on campus, so re-purposing one for faith/spirituality/religion is just a waste. Caving in to people who think that "the Muslims shouldn't get anything that everyone else doesn't also get" will go further to dividing students along cultural/religious lines.

As long as the space can be found (which is the real difficulty here) this is an extremely reasonable accommodation, they just need a space to wash their hands and pray. As an atheist, I don't share these beliefs, but if I required accommodation from a Muslim majority I would hope they would be empathetic and give me the benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by samd

Religious beliefs are already on campus and are already part of the campus atmosphere for many people. A Muslim prayer space wouldn't "bring Islam to Mac" it would simply provide some accommodation for the many Muslim students who are already here. Mac is as much a Muslim uni as it is a Christian, Hindu, Jewish or atheist uni.

The difference between Islam and most other faiths represented on campus is that Muslims believe they are required to perform a specific prayer ritual at various points throughout the day (I believe it's 5 but I could be wrong). It would not be convenient for them to venture off campus to find a suitable space for this prayer, even Muslims who live on campus or near campus find it difficult. Furthermore we have a large number of Muslim students who share these beliefs and require a space.

We should accommodate those who require accommodation and everyone else can grow up and shut up. We already have numerous all-inclusive spaces on campus, so re-purposing one for faith/spirituality/religion is just a waste. Caving in to people who think that "the Muslims shouldn't get anything that everyone else doesn't also get" will go further to dividing students along cultural/religious lines.

As long as the space can be found (which is the real difficulty here) this is an extremely reasonable accommodation, they just need a space to wash their hands and pray. As an atheist, I don't share these beliefs, but if I required accommodation from a Muslim majority I would hope they would be empathetic and give me the benefit of the doubt.

You are providing an accomodation that is not for the entire student body. If this was incorporated into the supplementary fees that every student has to pay at the beginning of the year, I highly anticipate that there would be many frustrated students that their money was going towards a project that will only be available to a certain demographic of the student body.

Yes, McMaster does have a fair sized population of Muslim students. There are mosques in the greater Hamilton area where you are easily capable of practicing your religion. By saying that Muslims pay closer attention to their religious practices so they deserve a place on campus, you are directly insinuating that your religious beliefs deserve more attention than the rest. Sorry but this is not the case at all.

Everyone should shut up eh, accommodate those who need accommodating eh? Do you hear the bullshit you are spewing right now? Who do you think you are that you can put your needs above others? I'm sure that many students would say that McMaster's wifi inefficiencies are a far more immediate problem that needs attending to. I'm sure athletic teams would like more state of the art practice facilities and equipment. So who the fuck are you to say that your needs are the most important? Your ignorance is amusing to say the least.

Did anyone ever say the Muslims shouldnt get what everyone else gets??? We are a collective student body. We all share the same campus. Therefore we all are given the same opportunities by McMaster. So dont go bullshiting that the muslim population is getting the short end of the stick here.

Originally Posted by BenDover

You are providing an accomodation that is not for the entire student body. If this was incorporated into the supplementary fees that every student has to pay at the beginning of the year, I highly anticipate that there would be many frustrated students that their money was going towards a project that will only be available to a certain demographic of the student body.

Um. Have you checked your supplementary fees? If you haven't, I strongly suggest you do. There are several items listed in that that truly only affect a certain demographic of the student body.

• McMaster Marching Band - I'm not in it
• Excel Building Fee - I won't be here by the time it's done. Even if I were, I wouldn't be using it
• Engineers Without Borders - I'm not associated with them
• McMaster Solar Car - The work they do does not have anything to do with me whatsoever nor will I ever

& more.

What's your point again?

I just feel like religion should be separated from school.
Not to be rude to anyone, but I really don't feel comfortable being in a place where religious people do their practice, and I'm pretty sure there are some other people who feel the same way.

If MSU insists on building a religious place on campus, I hope that happens somewhere else on campus other than libraries, lecture halls, student center, etc.

If MSU insists on building a religious place on campus, I hope that happens somewhere else on campus other than libraries, lecture halls, student center, etc.

MSU has no power on what building to build. They don't own or run the place. The investors do.

Originally Posted by herBs

Um. Have you checked your supplementary fees? If you haven't, I strongly suggest you do. There are several items listed in that that truly only affect a certain demographic of the student body.

• McMaster Marching Band - I'm not in it
• Excel Building Fee - I won't be here by the time it's done. Even if I were, I wouldn't be using it
• Engineers Without Borders - I'm not associated with them
• McMaster Solar Car - The work they do does not have anything to do with me whatsoever nor will I ever

& more.

What's your point again?

You just proved my point... people dont want to help fund initiatives that have no affect on them... you did read my post right? If you did you would realize i clearly stated that this would cause an issue with students not affected by the activities they are funding.

Originally Posted by BenDover

You just proved my point... people dont want to help fund initiatives that have no affect on them... you did read my post right? If you did you would realize i clearly stated that this would cause an issue with students not affected by the activities they are funding.

No, but. How much of an issue would it really cause though? I haven't seen anyone really protest about the supplementary fees, or going around asking people to sign various petitions to stop them, etc.