1. You
2. Suck

My god, you guys really turned this into quite a bit of TL;DR.

Originally Posted by Twelve Chars

factors like research, publications, "reputation", and graduate studies, none of which directly affect our undergraduate educations.
.

That's not true in general. It is true if you don't engage yourself academically beyond going to class and turning in assignments / showing up for tests, but isn't if you do anything more than that.

If you apply to any sort of research position in your undergraduate years, you'll find that the decisions-committee puts a lot of emphasis on the research productivity (reputation) of your school and the general reputation of your particular department. Additionally, many graduate admissions committees consider both general research productivity and the reputation of the particular department you come from.

The only thing i cant stand is the puddles when it rains. I actually stopped going to class during heavy rain days

Originally Posted by Mahratta

That's not true in general. It is true if you don't engage yourself academically beyond going to class and turning in assignments / showing up for tests, but isn't if you do anything more than that.

If you apply to any sort of research position in your undergraduate years, you'll find that the decisions-committee puts a lot of emphasis on the research productivity (reputation) of your school and the general reputation of your particular department. Additionally, many graduate admissions committees consider both general research productivity and the reputation of the particular department you come from.

What do you mean by research positions in undergraduate years? It's not something I would be doing and the only people I know that have had research jobs during their undergrad were working at McMaster. What, does the decisions-committee sit there and say "hmm this kid goes to our school, which sucks, let's not hire him, LOL." Or do a lot of kids get research jobs in their undergrads from schools/places outside of McMaster? I really don't know.

I also don't know how much grad school admissions people do or do not care about what school you're coming from, but I would assume your individual transcript, standardized test scores, and interview would take precedence over that.

Originally Posted by Twelve Chars

It's not something I would be doing and the only people I know that have had research jobs during their undergrad were working at McMaster.

Irrelevant. You made a universal statement ("reputation etc. doesn't matter for undergrad"), so even if a single student has a research job outside of Mac your point is falsified. I got a research position at a mathematical institute based in-part on the source of my reference letters and my department, so...

To clarify: a universal statement is falsifiable by an existential counterexample, an existential statement is falsifiable by a universal counterexample.

I also don't know how much grad school admissions people do or do not care about what school you're coming from, but I would assume your individual transcript, standardized test scores, and interview would take precedence over that.

Yes, those would probably take precedence over reputation (usually but not always), but remember that you gave the impression of particular things being generally useless to an undergraduate. Now you're arguing that they're generally less useful than grades, etc. which are common to all universities. Two different points.

Originally Posted by AelyaS

I should have fixed my quote. I meant the "doesn't afraid of anything part"

It's just a popular internet meme XD

Pretty sure it all started with this picture...

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Irrelevant. You made a universal statement ("reputation etc. doesn't matter for undergrad"), so even if a single student has a research job outside of Mac your point is falsified. I got a research position at a mathematical institute based in-part on the source of my reference letters and my department, so...

To clarify: a universal statement is falsifiable by an existential counterexample, an existential statement is falsifiable by a universal counterexample.

Yes, those would probably take precedence over reputation (usually but not always), but remember that you gave the impression of particular things being generally useless to an undergraduate. Now you're arguing that they're generally less useful than grades, etc. which are common to all universities. Two different points.

Maybe in the formal logic robot land you live in but there are gonna be existential counterexamples to most universal claims. If I say watching America's Next Top Model isn't gonna help you on your math test, but then by coincidence there's a bonus question about the show on the test that becomes the deciding factor in whether you passed or failed the test, then yeah I was wrong in that case but I would still stand by my statement in the future.

And ok if you really must have me to pick between absolutes there, then I would go ahead and say that which school you're coming from is generally useless when applying to grad school. They're selecting individuals based on individual merits.

But both these things are really beside my original original claim, that those things do not affect our undergraduate educations. Applying for jobs or grad school is not part of our undergraduate educations.

Originally Posted by Twelve Chars

Maybe in the formal logic robot land you live in but there are gonna be existential counterexamples to most universal claims.

First of all, I don't know why you are attempting to argue against my claims by a personal "attack", but it's not a particularly effective tactic. Notice that you're basically agreeing with me - perhaps you didn't read my post properly. Also, you should have said 'all' instead of 'most', as every universal claim is falsifiable by an existential counterexample.

If I say watching America's Next Top Model isn't gonna help you on your math test, but then by coincidence there's a bonus question about the show on the test that becomes the deciding factor in whether you passed or failed the test, then yeah I was wrong in that case but I would still stand by my statement in the future.

You're completely missing the point. You're now talking about a mental 'rule' - in such a situation, we can't speak analytically. I was talking about a written statement. If you want to mix up scenarios, so be it - but the same concepts don't necessarily apply.

And ok if you really must have me to pick between absolutes there, then I would go ahead and say that which school you're coming from is generally useless when applying to grad school. They're selecting individuals based on individual merits.

No-one is having you pick between absolutes but yourself. The point is that there are cases where reputation etc. matters. There's nothing to do with absolutes in my argument - indeed, quite the opposite.

But both these things are really beside my original original claim, that those things do not affect our undergraduate educations. Applying for jobs or grad school is not part of our undergraduate educations.

You're now picking and choosing what's "part of an undergraduate education" to suit your argument. It's a subjective matter, and thus the entire domain of discourse needs to be included.

EDIT: I apologize for not being able to continue this, but I've generally found that discussion here is becoming more and more distasteful (personally) and will be taking an indefinite break.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

First of all, I don't know why you are attempting to argue against my claims by a personal "attack", but it's not a particularly effective tactic.

whoa sorry I didn't realize you're a sperge, I'll refrain from such tactics in future operations and manoevers.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

Notice that you're basically agreeing with me - perhaps you didn't read my post properly. Also, you should have said 'all' instead of 'most', as every universal claim is falsifiable by an existential counterexample. You're completely missing the point. You're now talking about a mental 'rule' - in such a situation, we can't speak analytically. I was talking about a written statement. If you want to mix up scenarios, so be it - but the same concepts don't necessarily apply. No-one is having you pick between absolutes but yourself. The point is that there are cases where reputation etc. matters. There's nothing to do with absolutes in my argument - indeed, quite the opposite. You're now picking and choosing what's "part of an undergraduate education" to suit your argument. It's a subjective matter, and thus the entire domain of discourse needs to be included.

All right then we can't speak analytically, I don't view everything through that lens.

I said those things don't matter, you say that they do in some situations, I say ok maybee but I'm skeptical to both how many students are in that situation and how much the reputation of the school helped you get the job, so I stand by my original statement.

Is it so unfair for me to say that those things are not part of an undergraduate education? I guess you would argue here that getting that research job enriched your learning experience or something. And maybe something even more abstract than that for grad school applications that I can't think of offhand.

And btw why are all universal claims falsifiable?

Originally Posted by Mahratta

EDIT: I apologize for not being able to continue this, but I've generally found that discussion here is becoming more and more distasteful (personally) and will be taking an indefinite break.

One casual remark and you're done posting forever? ooh they so sensitive. But it was probably more like the straw that broke the camel's back I guess, I'm sorry that I was the one that laid it.

I just started my masters at another university and definitely miss my time at mcmaster.

The campus is beautiful and construction and traffic free. Our gym is amazing and fitness passes include the classes. My tuition is paid per term, and is about 2000 higher than it was at mac (and that isn't just because I'm a grad student now) All the labs I used were always spotless and weren't messy and hard to find things in like the ones I use now. I was able to TA as an undergrad where most other schools limit the number of positions offered to undergrads and let grads apply first. Housing is inexpensive compared to other university cities (toronto, kingston, ottawa, london, etc. )

Overall, I just MISS MAC so stop complaining because once you leave you will understand that Mac offers tons of great services, support, and opportunities. Don't complain about the small stuff and enjoy your four years there. Or since no one is making you stay at McMaster, change schools and you too will quickly realize how great you had it.

Originally Posted by Clematis

I just started my masters at another university and definitely miss my time at mcmaster.

The campus is beautiful and construction and traffic free. Our gym is amazing and fitness passes include the classes. My tuition is paid per term, and is about 2000 higher than it was at mac (and that isn't just because I'm a grad student now) All the labs I used were always spotless and weren't messy and hard to find things in like the ones I use now. I was able to TA as an undergrad where most other schools limit the number of positions offered to undergrads and let grads apply first. Housing is inexpensive compared to other university cities (toronto, kingston, ottawa, london, etc. )

Overall, I just MISS MAC so stop complaining because once you leave you will understand that Mac offers tons of great services, support, and opportunities. Don't complain about the small stuff and enjoy your four years there. Or since no one is making you stay at McMaster, change schools and you too will quickly realize how great you had it.

So what dump are you at now?

Originally Posted by Twelve Chars

So what dump are you at now?

lol are you kidding me? grow up

Originally Posted by Eternal Fire

lol are you kidding me? grow up

are you kidding me? how can you be offended by that.