[Chad]

1280's New Logo Discussion Gets Heated, SRA responds

The thread on MacInsiders about the 1280 logo has heated up. The Silhouette brought to everyone's attention what they said was a tentative logo with a disclaimer that "the typeface of that font is not set in stone, nor is the content of the text underneath". Had The Sil not posted the logo, no one would have known of it's existance until it was on the wall of the new restaurant come September.

Opinions quickly started to come in, most showing disapproval. Users posted some alternatives and even went as far as to post a critique of the font(s) used in the logo design and ways it can be improved. However, student's opinions about the logo apparently don't matter because a) some SRA members don't feel the logo is of much importance, and b) the logo was already approved and ratified. It's final. Some SRA representatives even went as far as to insult the MacInsiders community by saying opinions posted by members were just 'bitching' or 'whining', and that users 'are very much an online clique with very much the same interests and opinions'.

On Monday an e-mail was sent to the Executive Board (EB) to choose a logo out of 3 mockup designs. A decision needed to be made by the end of the day. The SRA were not consulted on this decision. A final logo was brought to the Executive Board meeting later that week and was ratified as final. The haste of the decision has been attributed to the project's rushed timeline.

The SRA House Leader posted a response on the SRA blog explaining:

"Given that no EB member was able to ask for student input due to the project’s timeline and deadline placed on the EB, the EB could not have fairly and representatively sampled student opinion on the matter. Time dictated that we make an immediate decision, so we did the best that we could.

...students have invested in the SRA and the EB the ability and duty of representing students. We consult as many students as we can if we have the time to seek opinion and input (this is a great way to get involved with a SRA Standing Committee), however, this like other time-sensitive issues in this government, is voted on behalf of students by the duties you’ve bestowed upon us."

As a multimedia student of McMaster, I feel logo design is of great importance when building a new brand image for a new restaurant. For those who think otherwise I suggest reading the Wikipedia article on Corporate Identity or Brand Management.

A distinct identity differentiates an organisation from its competitors. It allows customers to recognise, understand and clearly describe the organisation concerned. The identity of any organisation is complex. It includes the effectiveness of its services or products, the shared values and ambitions of its employees, the corporate tone of voice and PR profile. Naturally, its visual appearance - or visual identity - plays a key role. [source]

While some may see this post fueling the fire, I think it's important to bring up the importance of student feedback... whether it be through 'unofficial' sources such as MacInsiders, through the MSU's official forum, The Silhouette's website, Facebook, or even walking around campus with a clipboard. While having a logo contest could have taken too long on a tight timeline, an official MSU poll, similar to that of voting on the name itself (which, by the way, was decided "1280" not "Twelv Eighty"), could have been quick and easy.

While we trust the SRA to make the best decision on our behalf, they were put in a tight spot. With such a rushed timeline, the SRA did not have a choice in logo mockup designs, and did not have a chance to poll or ask students. Students are feeling left out the decision. If this is to be a new restaurant embraced by the students as something they can call their own, then their opinions should be respected for things as important as brand design.

[lorend]

I really feel there was enough time for there to get student input.

What I'd like to know is what happened in the weeks between when the name was decided and the logo was presented (and given such a short voting time line). I'm not graphic design expert, but it shouldn't take weeks for any professional to design something.

[Mowicz]

However, student's opinions about the logo apparently don't matter because a) some SRA members don't feel the logo is of much importance, b) the logo was already approved and ratified. It's final.

o_O

Ok it's not important, so let's just make the worst one we possibly can, with the least effort possible, in the shortest amount of time, and then approve/ratify it without any student feedback. We are after all, the student representative assembly.

[Lois]

The behaviour of the SRA was rather unprofessional. As a "politician" (haha), maintaining good public representation is important. When you start insulting people for having an alternate opinion, it looks really bad.

I don't necessarily understand how simply disliking a logo necessarily translates to "hating the MSU" either.

[Taunton]

Originally Posted by Mowicz

o_O

Ok it's not important, so let's just make the worst one we possibly can, with the least effort possible, in the shortest amount of time, and then approve/ratify it without any student feedback. We are after all, the student representative assembly.

I'd just like to make it clear that the SRA was left completely out of this. I didn't even see any logos until I saw it here. I'm sure that there's still SRA members who still don't even know this all happened yet.

I'm not entirely impressed with this situation as an SRA member, but the SRA is adjourned for the summer, and the Executive Board has taken over most of the responsibilities of the SRA until September. This whole thing comes from the EB.

[Taunton]

Originally Posted by jesus

The behaviour of the SRA was rather unprofessional. As a "politician" (haha), maintaining good public representation is important. When you start insulting people for having an alternate opinion, it looks really bad.

Let's be fair here. I don't think anyone from the SRA insulted anybody for having an alternate opinion. I know I said some things which frankly were unprofessional, and I apologized for it, but nowhere (unless I missed something) did any SRA member insult anyone.

Your tone also isn't appreciated. I'm working damn hard for you and the other 19,999 full time students (even though you aren't necessarily seeing it), and so are many other SRA members.

I think many of us need to take a break from this and cool off. It's a little too easy to say things on the internet without thinking, due to the illusion of "anonymity".

[Mowicz]

Originally Posted by Taunton

I'd just like to make it clear that the SRA was left completely out of this. I didn't even see any logos until I saw it here. I'm sure that there's still SRA members who still don't even know this all happened yet.

I appreciate your civil, dignified responses here. (:

I apologize, I'm not entirely aware of how the system works, I figured that the statement were some sort of "general consensus" among the SRA community.

However, if as you say you (and other SRA members) haven't been involved in the project, then I'd like to apologize for my sarcastic remarks, for they are indeed in error. They were meant at the source of the comments I'd quoted in my initial post.

But then, I'd like to point out that public opinion is still at the core of the process right? Perhaps a lot of people share the same opinion, perhaps it is driven by bias (although I'd like to argue that macinsiders is full of people from all walks of McMaster life), but in any case, at least they do have an opinion.

[huzaifa47]

Originally Posted by Taunton

It's a little too easy to say things on the internet without thinking, due to the illusion of "anonymity".

Well first it was one SRA member who called student opinion who called everyone's opinions(Even though they weren't personally attacking anyone in particular yet) "Bitching and Whining" He retracted it.

Then it was you with your rather misguidedly unprofessional remarks towards me along with an allegation regarding the credibility of Insiders backed up by "facts"(The whole experimental design/confounds argument) which were later proven to be somewhat wrong. You Retract it.

Then there was this one SRA member who told someone to "get a life" a couple of weeks ago in some other thread.

Call me cynical but there is more then random mistakes going on in regards to such behaviour, there seems to be a good level of mistrust and emnity between Insider Users(aka MSU Students) and the SRA(aka THEIR representatives: "answerable" to their constituents according to law) which is most probably the reason why you guys are lashing out in such fashion and then "retracting" it. Being elected officials you obviously had to retract such comments, so no bonus points for doing that!

There might be a good number of people who might end up "thinking" that such behaviour actually does reflect the true stance of yourself and the organization you are representing towards students, so you gotta be careful!

This apparent lack of respect for critical opinions will never translate well towards the long term popularity of the MSU and its aims of more student involvement and solving apathy. Even if you do retract such comments the damage has already been done for the neutrals who were reading, which is something more important to me then any other consequences.

*Edit: A few of us here DO realize that the SRA pretty much had nothing to do with the descision, for the rest that don't efforts could have been made to explain the situation and then contact the BOD/House leader personally and having gotten back answers; posted them up here to placate all the people criticizing and complaining. Thats pretty much what I did by example on the thread, instead you guys went on a different rant dismissing Insiders and telling people to email you guys. That is not most probably a good example of "representation". A good example of what I'm trying to get at is how Matt Wright posted up saying "Hey Engineers, just for clarification I voted against......"; something like this would build a certain degree of trust between yourself and your constituents who will be re-affirmed that THEIR SRA member has their best interests in mind(which I'm sure you do). Instead of that the overall theme was dismissal of opinion and criticism of the forum and dismissal of the importance of the logo(which irked anyone with basic knowledge of Corporations) and so on and on; it created this whole negative Us Vs Them atmosphere.

In other words, I am assuming/theorizing that the regular joes expect a different and autonomous role from the SRA

[Taunton]

Originally Posted by Mowicz

I appreciate your civil, dignified responses here. (:

I apologize, I'm not entirely aware of how the system works, I figured that the statement were some sort of "general consensus" among the SRA community.

However, if as you say you (and other SRA members) haven't been involved in the project, then I'd like to apologize for my sarcastic remarks, for they are indeed in error. They were meant at the source of the comments I'd quoted in my initial post.

But then, I'd like to point out that public opinion is still at the core of the process right? Perhaps a lot of people share the same opinion, but at least they do have an opinion.

Here's the problem. In the summer, the SRA is adjourned (or put on hiatus, you so eloquently stated). The reasons for this are many, and probably obvious. Students come from all over the country; all over the world for that matter, and students are also travelling all over the world. We can't meet regularly in the summer for quorum reasons... it simply wouldn't work out; it'd be a nightmare.

To that end, the Executive Board (EB) is given the responsibility to act in the stead of the SRA for the summer months. Traditionally, this wouldn't be much of a problem... just things like wage reviews for employees, and other minutea. This year, it's become a bit of a hassle because of the big projects associated with 1280 going on... the Executive Board has the legitimate authorization and right to make these decisions, and while they should consult the SRA on bigger decisions (like this one), they often don't (probably out of habit... I'll give them the benefit of the doubt... they don't need to contact us for every little point of business).

EDIT: I'll just add an update I just recieved. Logos/logo changes are generally considered to be under the purview of the EB's standard duties; another reason why the SRA wasn't consulted.

I'll just add that I've been getting regular updates from the members of the BoD (Board of Directors), and so to some extent we've been updated. I think the problems we are seeing here could have been solved with some foresight back in our final meeting before the summer break where we put limits on the EB's authority. If we had the forsight, we could have limited their ability to make decisions such as these without the go-ahead from the SRA. None of us foresaw this happening however, and hindsight is 20-20.

At this point, there's nothing we can really do unless we had an emergency meeting, which likely wouldn't make quorum. This is something that I will have to prepare my successor for next April.

[jmbauman]

so much like for that post! I've typed out about 6 responses to that effect, but each of them sounded really lame.

thanks for putting it so eloquently, Ben!

[DavidR]

So much for all that transparency and accountability we were promised in Tiwari's campaign. Here we are finding out about half assed logos through MacInsiders and given no time of day to have our opinions heard.

[Taunton]

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Well first it was one SRA member who called student opinion who called everyone's opinions(Even though they weren't personally attacking anyone in particular yet) "Bitching and Whining" He retracted it.

Then it was you with your rather misguidedly unprofessional remarks towards me along with an allegation regarding the credibility of Insiders backed up by "facts"(The whole experimental design/confounds argument) which were later proven to be somewhat wrong. You Retract it.

Then there was this one SRA member who told someone to "get a life" a couple of weeks ago in some other thread.

Call me cynical but there is more then random mistakes going on in regards to such behaviour, there seems to be a good level of mistrust and emnity between Insider Users(aka MSU Students) and the SRA(aka THEIR representatives: "answerable" to their constituents according to law) which is most probably the reason why you guys are lashing out in such fashion and then "retracting" it. Being elected officials you obviously had to retract such comments, so no bonus points for doing that!

There might be a good number of people who might end up "thinking" that such behaviour actually does reflect the true stance of yourself and the organization you are representing towards students, so you gotta be careful!

This apparent lack of respect for critical opinions will never translate well towards the long term popularity of the MSU and its aims of more student involvement and solving apathy. Even if you do retract such comments the damage has already been done for the neutrals who were reading, which is something more important to me then any other consequences.

You know what, I completely understand and I'm taking this whole thing as a learning experience. I'm very much used to being an extremely opinionated person who is more than willing to debate and argue simply because I find it to be fun (honestly!). I'm still more or less figuring out that I've got a few more people watching me and what I say than I'm used to (I've been involved in government since first-year, but the Faculty society is nothing compared to this).

I've also realised that people here often don't read all the posts in a thread, and often don't even read all of any one post. My words have been misconstrued and twisted (or manipulated... sorry for the negative sounding words... can't think of a better one) a few times now... probably not out of malicious intent. It does however give myself, and frankly everyone else here more reason to be careful about what they say.

As for MacInsiders being "credible"... I see it as a place to gather student opinion... it's also a place to see and participate in some debate, but it's not the be-all and end-all. I've been actively participating here for close to a month now, and to be honest (and this is how I see it, from my experiences here), there's less than 100 people (not all are students or otherwise under my purview) who actively participate on most threads, and also post their own threads. There's other users who occasionally post, and probably read threads more often, and then there's the users who make an account simply for the purpose of posting a single question or w/e, and probably don't participate or read. This is just what I've observed, and is probably more or less accurate, to some extent.

As an SRA member who is trying to represent my constituents, I can tell you that I'm planning on using this site, and other sites as well as the more traditional means of connecting with students. It's a work in progress, and this has been a learning experience for sure.

Thanks for your criticism... it's really the one of the few ways for us to improve.

Cheers!

[Chad]

Hi Ben,

Between 2000-3000 students visit MacInsiders on a daily basis, peaking around 4500-5000 at peak times such as registration, welcome week, etc. We receive over 450,000 page views a month... with last month bringing in 472,937. Students spend an average of 7:40 minutes on the site each day. That's a lot of students viewing your postings, reading your opinions, and posting feedback. As for active forum users, there is an average 450-600 'active' registered members signing in each day and contributing to the site, and 55% of our member base have registered as first-year students.

If you'd like more info we can setup a meeting to chat about ways to get you more involved on the site, but it's good to be more informed on just how much of an impact you can make as an SRA member via MacInsiders.

We also have an "SRA CONNECTION" section, where SRA level members (who have been upgraded such as yourself) can post news, announcements, and get opinions from students... and those posts get promoted to the homepage. I don't see any better way you could be reaching out to students in an 'unofficial' student community. We've given you and the other SRA members the power... you just need to use it.

[Willmountain]

I would have loved to have some kind of public opinion vote on this... But I guess they couldn't do that... Why not wait for the students to return? I don't know. It seems like they shouldn't do the choosing for us because well... look what came of it... Mediocrity.

[Taunton]

Originally Posted by Willmountain

I would have loved to have some kind of public opinion vote on this... But I guess they couldn't do that... Why not wait for the students to return? I don't know. It seems like they shouldn't do the choosing for us because well... look what came of it... Mediocrity.

1280 is planned to have a soft open by the end of August. They needed a logo before now because they are already late for printing mail-out materials for first-years, getting uniforms ready, and a bunch of other things they need to produce.