Originally Posted by darkstar

I came to university with the sole intent of going to law school. Then reality set in. I have the marks for it but there is so much more to consider especially after some of my best friends are lawyers or went to law school.

First is the cost. Unless your parents are paying for it, it will cripple you. You will not be able to work part time during the school year and most law schools are in very expensive cities to live in. I figured I would be about $160 000 in the hole after undergrad and law school.

Second. I know many people who went to law school and then realized they don't give a crap about the law. If you don't care, you will not make it.

Third is connections. If you don't have them, seriously think about law as career option. My friend with no connections is general counsel at a financial company in Hamilton making 50k a year after being unemployed for more than a year after articling. My friend who's parents were both lawyers started at a class action firm in Toronto at 185k a year plus bonuses. A job which he had lined up before graduating.

Finally, law is not medicine. For every lawyer out there making 250k there are hundreds working in a one room office making 40k and they still work 80 hours a week. You don't get into law for money, you get into it out of passion.

My brother is a surgeon and I would love to give my parents a doctor and a lawyer but its not realistic and I don't have the interest anymore. Over the years I have learned the hard way that enjoying what you do is more important than money and prestige.

If you love the law, go for it. If your family is full of lawyers and you have connections, I hate you but go for it. If you are broke and still want to go, try to get scholarships to mid level US universities in places like Idaho and then do some independant study to pass a canadian bar.

What you are saying is true but I'm pretty sure there are other reasons why your friend with no connections didn't get a job straight out of Law School. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying that if you don't have connections, there is little to no hope for you to land a great paying job. But this can't be true. Of course, connections go along way and this extends to every single field. I know how frustrating it is personally, I spent about 4 months before the summer began looking for a job in a bank and there were some luckier kids with connections who were able to skip the line. But I'm sure if you are good at what you do, meet the right people, say the right things, regardless of your connections, you can still achieve what you want. Had I been a little more proactive and gone to these banks in person and spoken to every one I needed to, I am pretty sure I would have gotten further and I think the same applies for Law graduates.

I don't think it would be as difficult for a UofT graduate at least to get a great paying job in Bay Street straight out of Law School. Where I think it starts to get tricky is if you graduated from a university further away from Bay street, in both distance and prestige, then it weighs more heavily on who you know as opposed to how well you did.

does mac offer LSAT prep courses\?

Originally Posted by david.p92

does mac offer LSAT prep courses\?

Yes they do:

http://www.mcmaster.ca/conted/programs/test-prep/

I'm kind of looking into law school as well. I don't want to go into family or criminal law or anything like that. I'm thinking of doing patents for the scientific community. I figure a BSc would give me a good background for that kind of thing.

I'm also going for my BSc in Psychology and I am to go to corporate law. I think psychology will prepare me properly because it'll give me the opportunity to learn how society reasons which I think would give me an edge or will be a definite advantage if I can properly apply this to law.

Originally Posted by SirPhil

What you are saying is true but I'm pretty sure there are other reasons why your friend with no connections didn't get a job straight out of Law School. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying that if you don't have connections, there is little to no hope for you to land a great paying job. But this can't be true. Of course, connections go along way and this extends to every single field. I know how frustrating it is personally, I spent about 4 months before the summer began looking for a job in a bank and there were some luckier kids with connections who were able to skip the line. But I'm sure if you are good at what you do, meet the right people, say the right things, regardless of your connections, you can still achieve what you want. Had I been a little more proactive and gone to these banks in person and spoken to every one I needed to, I am pretty sure I would have gotten further and I think the same applies for Law graduates.

I don't think it would be as difficult for a UofT graduate at least to get a great paying job in Bay Street straight out of Law School. Where I think it starts to get tricky is if you graduated from a university further away from Bay street, in both distance and prestige, then it weighs more heavily on who you know as opposed to how well you did.

hahaha, bless this little kid who lives in a fantasy world, your going to walk into a bank and the security will kick you right out, my friend has a bank connection, and he didn't even have to do an interview! Just face it, the chances are very slim if you don't have the connections, and are you willing to waste that much money (law school)on a very slim chance, I will feel vindicated when your sitting on your couch 1000's of dollars in debt. And please explain the correlation between how close U of T and baystreet is have to do with anything.

Lol at the assumption that U of T = instajob at Bay street.

Anyways, money shouldn't hold people back from attending law school IF that's what they're passionate about practicing. Banks are usually pretty good at giving law students a 200K LOC at prime once you get in.

That said, it's getting increasingly difficult for law students to find jobs. It's hard work to get into law school, but you'll often spend your summers interning at various law firms and not getting paid for your efforts unless you get a scholarship. Often times people with law degrees often work jobs that aren't even related to law, but can end up working in middle management.

As stated, connections are important so a lot of internships are very competitive (and you're competing with other talented people). You can theoretically work hard to impress your preceptors, but often times the person with the connection will get the job. :\

Originally Posted by SydWidgets

hahaha, bless this little kid who lives in a fantasy world, your going to walk into a bank and the security will kick you right out, my friend has a bank connection, and he didn't even have to do an interview! Just face it, the chances are very slim if you don't have the connections, and are you willing to waste that much money (law school)on a very slim chance, I will feel vindicated when your sitting on your couch 1000's of dollars in debt. And please explain the correlation between how close U of T and baystreet is have to do with anything.

1) In UofT, out of a class of 194 students, 99 of them managed to find placement in Bay street (See document below). Maybe a little over half of the class all had connections, or maybe there is something else to it. I strongly believe its the latter. As for the rest of the class, I'm sure the reason they didn't end up in Bay Street is because they didn't want to go into cooperate law as Bay street jobs are typically that, they wanted to go somewhere else in Canada or they had big New York dreams or the like.

2) In terms of the correlation between proximity to Bay Street and U of T, check out the stats found in this document. You would find that the further away a school is from Bay Street, the lower the amount of students working at Bay Street is.
http://issuu.com/ultra.vires/docs/uv...10/10?mode=a_p

Before you insult someone, or spew out pseudo-knowledge, at least do everyone reading this thread a little favour and speak from evidence and not your misconceived perception of reality.

Originally Posted by Lois

Lol at the assumption that U of T = instajob at Bay street.

Anyways, money shouldn't hold people back from attending law school IF that's what they're passionate about practicing. Banks are usually pretty good at giving law students a 200K LOC at prime once you get in.

That said, it's getting increasingly difficult for law students to find jobs. It's hard work to get into law school, but you'll often spend your summers interning at various law firms and not getting paid for your efforts unless you get a scholarship. Often times people with law degrees often work jobs that aren't even related to law, but can end up working in middle management.

As stated, connections are important so a lot of internships are very competitive (and you're competing with other talented people). You can theoretically work hard to impress your preceptors, but often times the person with the connection will get the job. :\

I never made such an assumption. I said, I don't think it would be as difficult. I know it would be difficult but perhaps not as difficult as darkstar's friend found it.

Originally Posted by SirPhil

What you are saying is true but I'm pretty sure there are other reasons why your friend with no connections didn't get a job straight out of Law School. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying that if you don't have connections, there is little to no hope for you to land a great paying job. But this can't be true. Of course, connections go along way and this extends to every single field. I know how frustrating it is personally, I spent about 4 months before the summer began looking for a job in a bank and there were some luckier kids with connections who were able to skip the line. But I'm sure if you are good at what you do, meet the right people, say the right things, regardless of your connections, you can still achieve what you want. Had I been a little more proactive and gone to these banks in person and spoken to every one I needed to, I am pretty sure I would have gotten further and I think the same applies for Law graduates.

I don't think it would be as difficult for a UofT graduate at least to get a great paying job in Bay Street straight out of Law School. Where I think it starts to get tricky is if you graduated from a university further away from Bay street, in both distance and prestige, then it weighs more heavily on who you know as opposed to how well you did.

Any day of the week, month or year I would exchange top of the class at UofT law for a HS diploma and the right connections.

It is possible to cultivate connections and networks on your own but good luck competing with kids that were bred to graduate from UofT law or Ivey or whatever. Yes you can get a well paying job but those that are connected will still get a better paying one, have a much easier time going about it and will likely end up being your boss.

People kid themselves when they think this world is a meritocracy. People who believe that are the ones that don't need to worry about merit and those that think connections aren't that important are the ones that already have them.

Law school would be great.

Too bad I'm a lazy university student.

Though it may be true that connections play a firm role in getting a good job, I don't believe it's fair to generalize and make it sound like it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a good paying job without connections. If you work hard, are dedicated and sincere enough, why not?

Yes, that may sound naive. But if you don't aim for the top, you'll never get there, connections or not.

Originally Posted by darkstar

Any day of the week, month or year I would exchange top of the class at UofT law for a HS diploma and the right connections.

It is possible to cultivate connections and networks on your own but good luck competing with kids that were bred to graduate from UofT law or Ivey or whatever. Yes you can get a well paying job but those that are connected will still get a better paying one, have a much easier time going about it and will likely end up being your boss.

People kid themselves when they think this world is a meritocracy. People who believe that are the ones that don't need to worry about merit and those that think connections aren't that important are the ones that already have them.

Its good that your being realistic, but giving up on a good job that pays well b/c the "well connected" ppl will end up getting paid better, and being your boss, sounds greedy and selfish on your part, how are you going to succeed with that defeatist attitude?

everyone needs to start somewhere, everyone just can't become the boss all of a sudden. And after a few rounds of golf, a couple beers, and a few barbecues later with your superiors Im sure you'll have a promotion all lined up.

Originally Posted by darkstar

Any day of the week, month or year I would exchange top of the class at UofT law for a HS diploma and the right connections.

It is possible to cultivate connections and networks on your own but good luck competing with kids that were bred to graduate from UofT law or Ivey or whatever. Yes you can get a well paying job but those that are connected will still get a better paying one, have a much easier time going about it and will likely end up being your boss.

People kid themselves when they think this world is a meritocracy. People who believe that are the ones that don't need to worry about merit and those that think connections aren't that important are the ones that already have them.

Why the comparison between UofT Top class degree and a High School Diploma? I understand your point but you have to be kidding me. Connections are great and all but I think you may be over exaggerating its utility. And of course I understand your hyperbole but you can only take it so far without sounding a little ridiculous.

I'm not giving up on a well paying job, I'm just saying that people with networks and connections have a significant advantage when it comes to employment opportunities and outcomes. I have also been working longer than many of you have been alive and I have seen this in action over and over again. Not only that, labour outcomes is one of the things I study at school.

I also fail to see how "giving up" is selfish and greedy. Wouldn't giving up be the exact opposite of that?

Why the comparison between UofT law and a high school diploma? For starters because we've been talking about UofT law throughout the thread and a high school diploma based on all the people I know with only a high school diploma that make money than I can dream of or don't have to work at all, solely because of who their parents are. I stand by my statement but that doesn't mean everyone should too. That is why I said "I" would and not everyone.

I'm not telling anyone to give up cause you don't know the right people. I'm saying you will have your work cut out for you in order to land a great job. Not only that, what I consider successful or a good job might be different from everyone else. Working 100 hours a week for 100k a year is not a good job to me anymore. It is not impossible to get a good job but it will likely take longer and the road will likely be much harder for the majority of people with law in particularly.

For me, I weighed the pros and cons for years and decided I no longer want to pursue law but anyone else who is interested should know what they are getting into because high end law is quite territorial and exclusive.