Originally Posted by MDCL

For those who are happy to have the non-HSR student body chipping in a few buckaroos to subsidize their transportation, mind flipping me a few bucks for the GO?

Lol, ya it seems like everyones fine with spending all this money!

Originally Posted by MDCL

Well then, I'm looking forward to you advocating on behalf of the McMaster Go commuters for directing a portion of the HSR fees collected to subsidizing the GO student pass.

After all, defining global citizens to be Mac students who live within the reaches of the HSR would be quite an oxymoron, wouldn't it?

Since I would guess that majority of McMaster students live either on campus, or off-campus in Hamilton it is not unreasonable that a Hamilton bus-pass that facilitates transport to McMaster and throughout the city would be subsidized by student fees.

What you're asking for, however novel the idea (and I say this as a Go Commuter) is not exactly reasonable. There are many commuters from off-campus who attend McMaster but they come from many different places. To ask for McMaster to support a mandatory fee to subsidize Go transportation from various places in Southern Ontario is a bit far fetched.

That said there could still be avenues for your advocacy. The government might be a better place to lobby for subsidization like this. You can claim your monthly passes on your income tax for a deduction but perhaps you might like to lobby the government for more direct subsidization of school transportation for students in Ontario who commute. Lots of students commute to various post-secondary institutions across Ontario and have to pay for all their tickets on top of rising tuition costs, textbooks etc. You could even include the fact that commuting by using public transportation is a green, environmentally friendly initiative taken on by students instead of driving. Students could really benefit from money from the government to go toward subsidizing more of their education costs and for commuters part of the cost of getting an education is paying to commute to and from school every day.

All fine and good points (and yes, I do claim the tax credit for using GO).

True, a larger portion of the mac community uses the HSR than GO. I'd settle for a portion proportional to the GO commuters being set aside to subsidize GO passes.

But here's the thing. At its most basic element, mac has decided that students getting on a bus between points A and C should be paid for by the entire mac student body while students getting on a bus between points B and C should not. And not only shouldn't the second group get any subsidy, they should pay for the students in the first group.

Sweet deal depending what group you're in.

Originally Posted by MDCL

All fine and good points (and yes, I do claim the tax credit for using GO).

True, a larger portion of the mac community uses the HSR than GO. I'd settle for a portion proportional to the GO commuters being set aside to subsidize GO passes.

But here's the thing. At its most basic element, mac has decided that students getting on a bus between points A and C should be paid for by the entire mac student body while students getting on a bus between points B and C should not. And not only shouldn't the second group get any subsidy, they should pay for the students in the first group.

Sweet deal depending what group you're in.

Umm the Hamilton District Government has incentive to support students in relation to the revenue and consumer spending they bring to the local economy? Whereas Go Transport is at a provincial level and only vaguely falls under jurisdiction of the Ontario Government?

Originally Posted by MDCL

All fine and good points (and yes, I do claim the tax credit for using GO).

True, a larger portion of the mac community uses the HSR than GO. I'd settle for a portion proportional to the GO commuters being set aside to subsidize GO passes.

But here's the thing. At its most basic element, mac has decided that students getting on a bus between points A and C should be paid for by the entire mac student body while students getting on a bus between points B and C should not. And not only shouldn't the second group get any subsidy, they should pay for the students in the first group.

Sweet deal depending what group you're in.

You're disregarding the obvious and most crucial point. A large majority of students who go to McMaster fall into the first group and use the HSR to get to and from school.

McMaster hasn't said other student commuters shouldn't get a subsidy, that just isn't under their umbrella.

As has been pointed out Go Transit is a provincial thing, not a city wide thing.

McMaster is in Hamitlon and therefore has stong ties to the community. It only stands to reason that many of their initiatives would be involved with and related to Hamilton and students living in and attending school based out of Hamilton.

That's just the way the cookie crumbles in this case.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Umm the Hamilton District Government has incentive to support students in relation to the revenue and consumer spending they bring to the local economy?

You seem a bit confused about whose giving whom money.

For 2009-2010 each student will reach into their pocket and give the HSR $102.70; multiplied by 23,209 students works out to a cool $2.38 million.

Lol, I'm glad the City of Hamilton is supporting us by accepting our cash.

Originally Posted by sew12

McMaster hasn't said other student commuters shouldn't get a subsidy, that just isn't under their umbrella.

Pfft...semantics.

Originally Posted by MDCL

You seem a bit confused about whose giving whom money.

For 2009-2010 each student will reach into their pocket and give the HSR $102.70; multiplied by 23,209 students works out to a cool $2.38 million.

Lol, I'm glad the City of Hamilton is supporting us by accepting our cash.

Wow good job at spinning the figures/lacking any semblance of rational thought.

Would you like me to calculate for you the massive figures that students paying the $2.40 every time they get the bus or commuters like me getting the much much more expensive monthly pass every month would bring to the city's coffers? Are they charging us that rate? NO!

Plus Busses don't run on water.

Originally Posted by MDCL

You seem a bit confused about whose giving whom money.

For 2009-2010 each student will reach into their pocket and give the HSR $102.70; multiplied by 23,209 students works out to a cool $2.38 million.

Lol, I'm glad the City of Hamilton is supporting us by accepting our cash.

$2.38 million, despite being a huge number, is incredibly cheap for the amount of service provided. This is because the HSR offered McMaster a deal.

When GO offers a similar discount for McMaster students, then we should debate this. Until then, the point is moot, because there's no way that Mac can add ($226/per month * 8 months of study * 23,209 students) = $41.96 million onto our student fees.

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Would you like me to calculate for you the massive figures that students paying the $2.40 every time they get the bus or commuters like me getting the much much more expensive monthly pass every month would bring to the city's coffers? Are they charging us that rate? NO!

I'll help you with your argument as math seems to be your weak point. If more than 1 million rides are made by students @ $2.40 in a year then yes, the HSR comes out ahead.

So, the key to your 'Hamilton subsidizes mac students' argument is that more than 1 million students would pay to ride the bus every year.

Do you have proof for this claim or are you just "spinning the figures"?

Originally Posted by MDCL

I'll help you with your argument as math seems to be your weak point. If more than 1 million rides are made by students @ $2.40 in a year then yes, the HSR comes out ahead.

So, the key to your 'Hamilton subsidizes mac students' argument is that more than 1 million students would pay to ride the bus every year.

Do you have proof for this claim or are you just "spinning the figures"?

You are assuming that they would all pay $2.40 every single time and not buy the Monthly pass like regular citizens who use the bus often. As explained below

Considering the bus pass is only about $100:

100/2.40 (cost of bus) = 41 times to break even

41 times / 32 weeks of school = taking the bus 1.3 times a week.

It won't be wrong to assume that the average number of bus trips by students do end up somewhere around this figure. But essentially even if it doesn't it comes down to the should we have unemployment benefits even if they only affect the very lowest class of society.

Edit: Another random assumption based calculation for you: Suppose I take the Bus to and from my house

2 Times a Day(morning+evening). 10 Times a week(assuming I work on Weekends or Go out or Do other stuff, Its fair to include the weekends since we are not considering repeated trips to home or work during weekdays or other trips not covered by transfer)

10*4=40 Times a month
40*8= 320 Times a year

Now we assume 3125 students take the same minimal commuting route as me 320*3125= Break Even=1,000,000 Happy?

This isn't even taking into account the fact according to your theory that over 19,000 students are either walking or driving(That would be a crapload of cars on campus!)

You seem to insist on your trolling even though basic rationality suggests the HSR deal is quite bloody useful!

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

Now we assume 7,500 take the same minimal commuting route as me 320*7500= Break Even=2,400,000 Happy?

Easy to pull numbers out of the air...maybe its 15,000 that take the trip,maybe its 2000...maybe its...ahhh who cares as I don't actually need to back up anything...just spinning numbers...

Originally Posted by MDCL

Easy to pull numbers out of the air...maybe its 15,000 that take the trip,maybe its 2000...maybe its...ahhh who cares as I don't actually need to back up anything...just spinning numbers...

My bad, I edited the calculation: The actual number for break even is 3,125 students. YES 3125!

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that over 19,000 students do not use the bus to get to school? Or your Trolling self doesn't like to admit he was wrong?

OK, before this post I want to restate that I would almost definitely not opt out of the HSR pass if given the option. Even if I don't use it enough to break even, I like the convenience. However, I think students should have that option. When I speak as if I specifically would like to opt out, that is only because it is easier than saying "hypothetical person who gets a raw deal in this case".

Originally Posted by huzaifa47

haha no you won't Think about it for a few minutes.

But this is most probably a political debate. I'm sort of left wing-utilitarian andd you appear to be right wing soo there is no possibility of consensus!

Edit: Plus secondly technically/Legally people do Consent to pay all that! When you sign your payment agreement you are signing off to something even if it is compulsory! :S

I have thought about it, quite a bit actually, but thats a topic for a different thread.

Obviously this wouldn't legally constitute theft, I was being mildly dramatic. But we are being coerced into paying these fees. I can't not pay them, otherwise I won't be able to get my degree, even though they in now way affect the academic costs of my education.

In terms of the politics thing, right/left more refers to what you think the government should be doing. If you think the government should be doing little to nothing, neither is a particularly useful descriptor. Thats why the Political Compass also judges based on Authoritarianism vs Libertarianism.

Originally Posted by sew12

Also please A. Marlowe cut the crap and stop saying they are taking your money for X service without consenting. By accepting an offer to be educated by this University and by paying tuition you agree to allow them to spend the money in the way they have set out. If you don't want to pay for the fees McMaster has negotiated and decided are important for their student body than don't attend McMaster.

Kindof like the "If you don't like the way this country is run, why don't you just leave?" argument that was so popular against antiwar protesters in the early Bush years

I'll admit I was being overtly dramatic, in the grand scheme of things it isn't that much. And again, I would personally not opt out of this particular fee if given the chance. That doesn't make it morally defensible to hurt a minority to benefit a majority.

Originally Posted by sew12

You're disregarding the obvious and most crucial point. A large majority of students who go to McMaster fall into the first group and use the HSR to get to and from school.

If its a large majority of students who would benefit from a pass, and would still pay the money, doesn't it discount the argument that the HSR would not offer McMaster this deal? At most it would cause the price to rise to meet the lost revenue of the opt outs, but if a majority still opts in it would rise to at most $200. Still a steal for those who take the bus regularly, but now it doesn't cause others to pay for a service they don't use.

I pay way more money using the GO train to get to and from Hamilton than I do using the HSR to get around Hamilton, and would much prefer if some of my students fees went to cover that cost. However I would not want the many students who do not use the GO to have to pay for me.

Originally Posted by A.Marlowe

If you think the government should be doing little to nothing, neither is a particularly useful descriptor. Thats why the Political Compass also judges based on Authoritarianism vs Libertarianism.

You are a Friedman School of Economics Capitalist aka No Government Intervention. People who subscribe to this are Usually VERY Right Wing ; This also constitutes American foreign policy over the years.

If its a large majority of students who would benefit from a pass, and would still pay the money, doesn't it discount the argument that the HSR would not offer McMaster this deal? At most it would cause the price to rise to meet the lost revenue of the opt outs, but if a majority still opts in it would rise to at most $200. Still a steal for those who take the bus regularly, but now it doesn't cause others to pay for a service they don't use.

I pay way more money using the GO train to get to and from Hamilton than I do using the HSR to get around Hamilton, and would much prefer if some of my students fees went to cover that cost. However I would not want the many students who do not use the GO to have to pay for me.

That's a bit of an Econ FAIL. We do not know the reservation value for students and at which point they will buy a car. Increase Congestion; their debt and other headaches and reduce the overall move towards sustainable public transport and the positive economic value of it. Plus the hardship suffered by students who can't afford the $200 monthly pass($200+$380 rent=$580 is more then what I earn at work right now!) who have to walk everyday.

In economics you cant say A+B=C there are sooo many things that you have to consider/quantify!