Originally Posted by Taunton

If we had a decent justice system, people wouldn't be out after crimes like that because they would be sentenced to life which means in jail until you die.

Killing people is fundamentally wrong, and the government needs to take the moral high ground by not murdering citizens.

I agree, but the capital punishment is more financially sound. Say it cost about $500 per month to keep a person in jail thats, $6000 a year, and if the person spends say 50 years in jail thats $300000 per prisoner. Imagine what we could with that 6000 times however many prisoners there on a yearly basis (improve health care, education, etc).

Can't a punishment be constructive? Like educating them about a better society and solving their problems (in case of depressed/problematic criminals, it's not like most of them like to commit crimes. they simply don't know many alternatives)

another thing that can be done in addition is making them adjust to a healthy lifestyle with proper routines resembling real life (in a confined area), when they will be accustomed to them they can be released to a 2nd (more free) stage and then when they are ready to be called civilized, they can be released.

The main thing is that they should be educated to live a peaceful life and solve their problems without criminal acts. In other words, we should seek to gain a civilized society by education instead of eradication.

Then there are criminals who find pleasure in committing crimes, there's got to be a way to change their minds to think otherwise

Also, I look at capital punishments this way:
Someone kills a person, gets a death sentence...big deal for them! they know its just gonna be around 10 minutes of suffering/choking and thats it, not much to fear IMO

@syaseen: umm...you're doing a cost-benefit analysis with the life of a living thing (almost a human)?

Originally Posted by Taunton

Let me just say, you could either be a very successful leader, or a hitler-esque leader... there's not much grey area with you, is there.

Not often, no.

Good night Ben! Thanks for making the thread. I'm glad the discussion has stayed respectful! (Kinda funny that that hockey thread got more heated than this is XD)

Originally Posted by lawleypop

If Canada had a better justice system and didn't have so much bias when convicting people (just as the state does), I don't think there'd be so many mistakes. Not that I know how many mistakes are made.

Asking me if that person was me does not help your argument, so I won't answer it.

My brain cannot possibly comprehend how going to jail in Canada for killing someone is justice. That's not fair. It's a goshdarn slap on the wrist. Honestly, a jail term for killing someone is basically telling me that killing someone isn't that big a deal. Why not do it? It's not like my life will be ruined. Again, karla homalka.

Unfortunately, I don't share your empathy. Fairness, to me, is an eye for an eye. Taking out all the "evil" in society and risking the possibility of an innocent death is a whole lot more justified than making sure all the innocent people stay innocent and letting criminals run free.

Once someone knows they can get away with something, they WILL do it again.

Edit: I am also willing to say that if we had serious consequences for these criminals and they actually STAYED in jail and weren't more well off than some of our own innocent citizens, then I agree that capital punishment wouldn't be necessary. But that's unfortunately not the case.

I think I know why you're REALLY evading my question....

the truth is that our justice system will NEVER be perfect, and there's always the chance of a wrongful conviction. If one innocent person is killed, I do not believe it's worth it. (Again, this isn't just "one person," this person could be you!)

As for everything else, I totally agree that Canada's prison system sucks, sentences are not harsh enough. They need to be given bare minimums in terms of needs, and long long sentences. But killing others to show that killing is wrong is not ok.

Oh, and seriously, if the only thing keeping you from killing someone else is you're fear of jail or the death penalty, you're seriously disturbed. C'mon now.

Originally Posted by lawleypop

Edit: I am also willing to say that if we had serious consequences for these criminals and they actually STAYED in jail and weren't more well off than some of our own innocent citizens, then I agree that capital punishment wouldn't be necessary. But that's unfortunately not the case.

That will never be the case. There will always be poor/homeless people in cities, it's just the way it is. They won't even take help for fear of losing what they have. There are many shelters provided but sadly there is a lot of theft that goes on. I believe they are required to shower in order to use the shelters so people may take their things while they are cleaning up.

Originally Posted by Afzal

Can't a punishment be constructive? Like educating them about a better society and solving their problems (in case of depressed/problematic criminals, it's not like most of them like to commit crimes. they simply don't know many alternatives)

another thing that can be done in addition is making them adjust to a healthy lifestyle with proper routines resembling real life (in a confined area), when they will be accustomed to them they can be released to a 2nd (more free) stage and then when they are ready to be called civilized, they can be released.

The main thing is that they should be educated to live a peaceful life and solve their problems without criminal acts. In other words, we should seek to gain a civilized society by education instead of eradication.

Then there are criminals who find pleasure in committing crimes, there's got to be a way to change their minds to think otherwise

Also, I look at capital punishments this way:
Someone kills a person, gets a death sentence...big deal for them! they know its just gonna be around 10 minutes of suffering/choking and thats it, not much to fear IMO

@syaseen: umm...you're doing a cost-benefit analysis with the life of a living thing (almost a human)?

I believe it's the prisoners who make our license plates. I'm sure they are required to do other jobs as well.

Originally Posted by jhan523

I believe it's the prisoners who make our license plates. I'm sure they are required to do other jobs as well.

really, wouldn't that be called slavery? I thought machines made license plates :s (atleast, they do in Pakistan :p)

Originally Posted by syaseen

I agree, but the capital punishment is more financially sound. Say it cost about $500 per month to keep a person in jail thats, $6000 a year, and if the person spends say 50 years in jail thats $300000 per prisoner. Imagine what we could with that 6000 times however many prisoners there on a yearly basis (improve health care, education, etc).

The Death Penalty is actually NOT cheaper than life imprisonment, that's a common misconception. In order for a prisoner to be executed, they must go through several levels of appeal to ensure that there is no defense for the convicted. The court needs to be as sure as possible that the criminals are guilty of their crime(s). Due to the cost of lawyers and the time in court, plus the price of the actual execution, it ends up costing taxpayers more than it would to keep them in prison.

http://www.balancedpolitics. org/death_penalty.htm
http://www.sunfyre.com/deathpenalty.html
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-murderersalive.htm

Originally Posted by Afzal

Can't a punishment be constructive? Like educating them about a better society and solving their problems (in case of depressed/problematic criminals, it's not like most of them like to commit crimes. they simply don't know many alternatives)

another thing that can be done in addition is making them adjust to a healthy lifestyle with proper routines resembling real life (in a confined area), when they will be accustomed to them they can be released to a 2nd (more free) stage and then when they are ready to be called civilized, they can be released.

The main thing is that they should be educated to live a peaceful life and solve their problems without criminal acts.

Then there are criminals who find pleasure in committing crimes, there's got to be a way to change their minds to think otherwise

This is exactly what I've been arguing against. I believe there is much to large a focus on rehabilitation. Under no circumstance should someone EVER have a "legitimate" reason to kill someone, or rape a child (assuming raping a child is much more severe than raping anyone). Everyone KNOWS the laws of society. You HAVE to, since ignorance of the law is never an allowed defence in a court of law. Knowing these laws, if you kill someone, you shouldn't GET a second chance. You knew the consequences!

What you're describing (with the rehabilitation) is EXACTLY what's going on in Canada. And I think that this is what many people are flustered about. These criminals KILL people and they're almost REWARDED.

Originally Posted by katie_batt

The Death Penalty is actually NOT cheaper than life imprisonment, that's a common misconception.

Explain

@syaseen: umm...you're doing a cost-benefit analysis with the life of a living thing (almost a human)?

LOL cost benefit analysis...
... As a side note, there was a section on "The economics of crime" in my Econ 2X03 textbook >_>

Originally Posted by katie_batt

The Death Penalty is actually NOT cheaper than life imprisonment, that's a common misconception.

Really? I figured a couple wooden bars and about 2 meters of rope would be cheaper than 2 meals a day for 25+ years.

Originally Posted by Afzal

really, wouldn't that be called slavery? I thought machines made license plates :s (atleast, they do in Pakistan :p)

It's "community service"

Originally Posted by lawleypop

This is exactly what I've been arguing against. I believe there is much to large a focus on rehabilitation. Under no circumstance should someone EVER have a "legitimate" reason to kill someone, or rape a child (assuming raping a child is much more severe than raping anyone). Everyone KNOWS the laws of society. You HAVE to, since ignorance of the law is never an allowed defence in a court of law. Knowing these laws, if you kill someone, you shouldn't GET a second chance. You knew the consequences!

What you're describing (with the rehabilitation) is EXACTLY what's going on in Canada. And I think that this is what many people are flustered about. These criminals KILL people and they're almost REWARDED.

I agree, I don't think rehabilitation really works and should be taken out of the system. I think life (actual life) imprisonment with no parole would be the best punishment. I don't think it's necessary for the death sentence.

I would also like to know how the death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment.

Originally Posted by JEFF_CHAN

Really? I figured a couple wooden bars and about 2 meters of rope would be cheaper than 2 meals a day for 25+ years.

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by katie_batt

I think I know why you're REALLY evading my question....

the truth is that our justice system will NEVER be perfect, and there's always the chance of a wrongful conviction. If one innocent person is killed, I do not believe it's worth it. (Again, this isn't just "one person," this person could be you!)

As for everything else, I totally agree that Canada's prison system sucks, sentences are not harsh enough. They need to be given bare minimums in terms of needs, and long long sentences. But killing others to show that killing is wrong is not ok.

Oh, and seriously, if the only thing keeping you from killing someone else is you're fear of jail or the death penalty, you're seriously disturbed. C'mon now.

That is not why I evaded the question.

You asked me, "what if it was me?" I don't care about living or dying. I don't care about humanity. Me answering that doesn't help your argument.

Let's assume for a second that I do care about society and humanity. If I cared so much about humanity and society and the greater good, then yes, if I had to get wrongly convicted in order for 5000 criminals to get what they deserve, I think I'd be fine with that.

And that's why I didn't care to answer it because now I look like some depressed freak, but you had to assume that you knew why I didn't answer it.

Originally Posted by katie_batt

The Death Penalty is actually NOT cheaper than life imprisonment, that's a common misconception. In order for a prisoner to be exectued, they must go through several levels of appeal, and because of the cost of lawyers and the time in court, plus the price of the actual execution, it ends up costing taxpayers more than it would to keep them in prison.

http://www.balancedpolitics. org/death_penalty.htm
http://www.sunfyre.com/deathpenalty.html
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-murderersalive.htm

There's also the fact that we have to build prisons (I'm pretty sure there are more prisoners that enter prison than die), hire people for the prison (guards, prison warden, etc..), provide food, hygiene, health care. There is also the maintenance of the building to put into consideration.