This course seems to do with sets, relations, counting etc., so I'm surprised that it isn't a math course. Is there a math course that deals with these topics? If not, how are math majors supposed to learn them?

I'm not sure about Math majors, but a course similar to Discrete Math in CS would be Math 1C03.

http://registrar.mcmaster.ca /calen...881.html#75816

I took CS 1FC3, and I know that a few people in my classes were either a Math major or a Commerce major and were pursuing a minor in Computer Science.

Originally Posted by herBs

I'm not sure about Math majors, but a course similar to Discrete Math in CS would be Math 1C03.

http://registrar.mcmaster.ca /calen...881.html#75816

I took CS 1FC3, and I know that a few people in my classes were either a Math major or a Commerce major and were pursuing a minor in Computer Science.

Thanks. So if I'm taking Math 1C03, I don't need to take CS 1FC3?

Originally Posted by Alexmahone

Thanks. So if I'm taking Math 1C03, I don't need to take CS 1FC3?

Depends,

If you want to pursue a minor in CS which would go well with your Math major in my personal opinion, then yes, according to this link:

http://registrar.mcmaster.ca /calen...12/pg1201.html

Originally Posted by herBs

Depends,

If you want to pursue a minor in CS which would go well with your Math major in my personal opinion, then yes, according to this link:

http://registrar.mcmaster.ca /calen...12/pg1201.html

Thanks. What if I want to do a pure math degree? Will I learn all the math taught in CS 1FC3 in my math courses?

Originally Posted by Alexmahone

Thanks. What if I want to do a pure math degree? Will I learn all the math taught in CS 1FC3 in my math courses?

I can't comment on all the math courses you will be taking simply because, I won't be taking all of the math courses you will be taking! To say the least, the course is not a bird course and it isn't even partially easy for people in CS for the most part. Though, the quizzes (5-6 surprise quizzes) and the exam were heavily curved. I'm trying to find out how I did without the curve, but with the curve I got an 11. Crazy stuff, but did I learn much? Nope. More memorization in that class then I have ever seen before (100+ axioms?).

Originally Posted by herBs

I can't comment on all the math courses you will be taking simply because, I won't be taking all of the math courses you will be taking! To say the least, the course is not a bird course and it isn't even partially easy for people in CS for the most part. Though, the quizzes (5-6 surprise quizzes) and the exam were heavily curved. I'm trying to find out how I did without the curve, but with the curve I got an 11. Crazy stuff, but did I learn much? Nope. More memorization in that class then I have ever seen before (100+ axioms?).

I'm finding it a little hard to grasp how a math class can involve a lot of memorization.

Originally Posted by Alexmahone

I'm finding it a little hard to grasp how a math class can involve a lot of memorization.

This isn't your typical Math class, which is why it isn't a course offered by the Math department. Discrete Mathematics has literally no numbers in the actual work involved, it is purely logic based. Set theory, relations, equational (no numbers!) reasoning, predicate logic, induction, boolean expressions, etc.

The thing about math 1C03 is that almost every year it has a different prof, book and course outline.

That being said, it was a really fun course back when it I took it.

Originally Posted by herBs

This isn't your typical Math class, which is why it isn't a course offered by the Math department. Discrete Mathematics has literally no numbers in the actual work involved, it is purely logic based. Set theory, relations, equational (no numbers!) reasoning, predicate logic, induction, boolean expressions, etc.

What does it even mean? Discrete math is based on mathematical logic which includes set theory, proof theory and more. Before spitting out nonsense, I would recommend you to visit courses on logic offered by math department.

As for preparation for the course, know equivalence relationships, De Morgan's laws, basic set theory, quantifiers and you will never have memorize 100+ axiom nonsense simply because of De Morgan's laws and truth table.

Originally Posted by Differential

What does it even mean? Discrete math is based on mathematical logic which includes set theory, proof theory and more. Before spitting out nonsense, I would recommend you to visit courses on logic offered by math department.

As for preparation for the course, know equivalence relationships, De Morgan's laws, basic set theory, quantifiers and you will never have memorize 100+ axiom nonsense simply because of De Morgan's laws and truth table.

Yeah, I've never understood why people complain about memorization. From what I've seen of the course notes, yes, there are many "theorems", but the vast majority are trivial derivations. As you said, the basic inference rules plus a few handy shortcuts should do the trick. That said, I have heard that you need to write the theorem numbers when you write out proofs, which seems ridiculous and then would force memorization.

However, the math logic course is not like this course. 1FC3 is a sort of "tips and tricks" course for fiddling around with wffs, as well as some random bits of graph theory. This is assumed for 4L, instead, we looked at properties of axiomatic systems (particularly, the ones we think of as axiomatizing mathematics, although this is a subtle point and not entirely true); for example, completeness of theories, then the completeness and compactness theorems, and on to model theory, which is rather more mathematical.

Originally Posted by herBs

This isn't your typical Math class, which is why it isn't a course offered by the Math department. Discrete Mathematics has literally no numbers in the actual work involved, it is purely logic based. Set theory, relations, equational (no numbers!) reasoning, predicate logic, induction, boolean expressions, etc.

(1) All of the things you've mentioned are absolutely fundamental to mathematics.
(2) None of those things should require much memorization. Merely an understanding of the principles.

Originally Posted by Mahratta

However, the math logic course is not like this course.

Could you give me the course code of the math logic course?

The relevant courses (I believe) are Math 3TP3, Math 4L03, and Math 4LT3. Depending on the year, specialized graduate courses may be offered in fields such as Model Theory.

Originally Posted by herBs

Discrete Mathematics has literally no numbers in the actual work involved, it is purely logic based.

So what you're saying is, Discrete Mathematics is Mathematics. (As opposed to arithmetic).

EDIT: And sorry, I really want to drive this point home:

Originally Posted by herBs

Crazy stuff, but did I learn much? Nope. More memorization in that class then I have ever seen before (100+ axioms?).

You've explained precisely why you had to memorize so much. If you learned and understood, you could logically deduce which statements follow from which.

If I didn't understand addition, I would have a hard time memorizing every single addition problem there ever was.

Originally Posted by Alexmahone

Could you give me the course code of the math logic course?

As Incognitus said, 3TP3, 4L03, and 4TP3 are the standard undergrad logic courses.

4L03 is the standard intro math logic course, and is a must-take course for anyone who wants to go into logic. This is where you learn the bread-and-butter of math logic. I've posted a course review for it.

3TP3 is a sort of "logic hook" course. It's supposed to get people into logic. From what profs have told me, it is more elementary than 4L, so may be a good idea to take this before taking 4L. This works out well, since 3TP3 and 4L03 are offered in complementary years. However, this course isn't necessary in the sense that 4L is.

4LT3 is a topics course. Typically, the course tends to be about axiomatic set theory. That's what it was about a couple of years ago, and what it's going to be about next year. Last year, it was a mix of set theory and category theory, but this year they are just going to focus on set theory. It seems like most 4LT3 courses will be on set theory, since basic model theory is treated in 4L03, and advanced model theory is quite difficult for the undergraduate level (so there is a graduate course, 711). Additionally, set theory is the most broadly useful topic among the potential 4LT3 topics (for math students who may not want to do grad school in logic).

711 is the model theory course. Personally, this was the best course I've ever taken at Mac; it was very challenging, but immensely rewarding. Model theory can be thought of as the application of logical methods to mathematical problems. You will take the logical infrastructure you learn in 4L03 and look at the different ways that model theorists have used those ideas to solve mathematical problems in many very different areas. So you will not only learn logic, but you will learn bits of algebra, topology, analysis, etc. (depending on the choices of the instructor) as well.

Mahratta, do you think 3E03 would suffice as a "prerequisite" for 4LT3? Because 4L03 isn't offered this year I won't have the opportunity to take it before or at the same time as 4LT3, which I'm interested in taking. 3E03 is the only prerequisite for 4L03 so I assume it would be sufficient for 4LT3 as well.