Originally Posted by allanandthera

Let's face it, it's the university's other faculty making noise and forcing us commerce students to subsidize the useless courses that are irrelevant to our career. I am making a petition to stop this excessive electives in our program I hope thread starter will sign it.

The big 4 accounting firms, and banks don't give a $#!T that you took that random course in social psychology or environmental science.

I think a huge mistake you're making is the assumption that you will get a job at one of these places. I'm not saying you're not smart enough or capable but by just doing the bare minimum and requirements only for commerce, I guarantee you don't have a chance unless you have extremely close ties.

Business is the most popular undergraduate program in all of Canada. More students are enrolled in business than any other program so you're competing with each and everyone of these people for those positions. So for sure you need to distinct yourself from everyone else and stand out. Bare minimum will get you no where.

Not to mention how many people also continue education and go to grad school for MBA or even PhD. Those programs definitely look at what else you do. And one final thought, not all business positions are filled by business majors. There are tons of engineers in business roles, heck in my company both our CEO and CFO are engineers. If you have hopes to have a position in a top company or even a major role, then you better be open to all subjects and find ways to differentiate yourself from everyone else doing just business courses.

Oh and banks hire a lot of engineers in their corporate offices for financial positions specifically for all of the analytic and computer skills they have.

Originally Posted by starfish

Also, the 30% off tuition thing will only apply to you for this year. It's not like you're grandfathered in...so if you're going to essentially waste the year anyways, then you'll be wasting the other 70% of the money you're paying, plus paying for an additional four years without the 30% off. Getting the money back really isn't a reason to start this year vs next year - unless you mean you will lose it in your fourth year if you wait? But either way, you'll be paying an extra year if taking the reduced course load is going to set you back. There are plenty of reasons why people might choose to extend their degree to five years and/or take a reduced courseload, but getting the 30% off doesn't really seem to be a logical reason.

Wait the 30% off Ontario Tuition grant only applies to your first year?

I (and most people I've spoken with) are under the impression that you have 30% off tuition from the time you enroll to the time you graduate.

Wow, that changes things.

Originally Posted by RedRanger

Wait the 30% off Ontario Tuition grant only applies to your first year?

I (and most people I've spoken with) are under the impression that you have 30% off tuition from the time you enroll to the time you graduate.

Wow, that changes things.

No, actually neither of those statements are correct. Just because you are eligible in first year that doesn't mean you'll automatically qualify for the rest of your years. You aren't eligible if you've been out of high school for more than four years. So a student entering university right from high school would be able to get the grant for four years (they'd need to reapply each year, and if their parents' financial situation changes, then their eligibility may also change), but if they extended their degree for a fifth year, they would be ineligible for that year - I believe the only exceptions to this are if you're in a five-year co-op program or have a permanent disability.

So, you're saying you need to go to university this year so that you're eligible, because you won't be next year...well, if that's the case, then you wouldn't be eligible next year regardless of whether or not you get the grant this year.

Always look up the information yourself. You can get yourself into trouble by assuming that what your friends say is correct. They're not privy to any secret information.

Looks like I might be able to just wait until next year then and get better prepared.

Also I noticed that OSAP don't seem to actually offer 30% off of the tuition. On the OSAP website it says 'university and college degree students' get up to $1780 off

Doesn't tuition cost $10 000+ for business/science/engineering/pre-med students?

Originally Posted by RedRanger

Looks like I might be able to just wait until next year then and get better prepared.

Also I noticed that OSAP don't seem to actually offer 30% off of the tuition. On the OSAP website it says 'university and college degree students' get up to $1780 off

Doesn't tuition cost $10 000+ for business/science/engineering/pre-med students?

It's 30% off the average tuition.
Business and science shouldn't cost over $10000, and pre-med isn't much different from science; there aren't official pre-med programs in Ontario (that I'm aware of) - it's more of an American concept. It's really just engineering, which is more expensive since it's a professional program, and therefore costs more than the average degree.

The 30% off also doesn't apply to students in second-entry programs such as medicine, pharmacy, optometry, physio, etc. Which is unfortunate since tuition for those programs is far above average - can be around $20000/yr.

Originally Posted by starfish

So how would you make up the remaining 30 units? The concept of a full course load and what it entails is the same across most if not all universities. How will employers view you then, compared to commerce/business degrees from other schools?

Also I am a big believer in being educated simply so that you're not ignorant, so that you can become a better person, more aware of the world around you and able to contribute to it - not everything you learn has to be directly relevant to your future job, though those random courses may help even in ways that you can't predict.

There are so many important topics to cover in commerce that there shouldn't be, 6 courses in upper years dedicated purely to electives. With first year having 4 electives and 2nd year 1, that is 10 courses : 1 year of our valuable education syphoned to the pockets of other faculties. That is bs. Look at other business schools and many of them have max 1 elective per year.

Once you understand that the university is essentially a business and our faculty is being pressured that you will see why there are so many electives. Do you realize that if commerce students don't take many electives many of your courses would not have sufficient students to be in it? It is an issue of cross subsidization.

Commerce students are essentially being ripped off by other faculties. What Overhead Costs do we incur? A few lights down at DSB and some lecture rooms? What Direct Material costs do we need? None. We do need Direct Labour, which is the faculty, but every faculty needs that. All this and yet we pay as much as the Science Faculty and nearly the Engineering Faculty who use much more resources from the university. That is absurd. Again : Cross subsidization.

To answer how the program should be made? The 2nd year courses should all be pushed to first year like other schools, and 3rd and 4 year should give flexibility to take specialized commerce topics. Just the topic of taxation, audits, and such is more than enough to fill all of the required courses in the program. In finance there are arguably more financial instrument topics to cover than there is probably to cover than most fields. Marketing, Human resources have many topics to cover.

If you want to increase the value of your personality, do it outside of the courses. Again, Accounting firms, Big Banks, Major Financial companies don't give two $#!T's that you took a random course in Biology or Natural Disaster courses. It is not applicable and you know it. What they need are well versed students who are INVOLVED, and have good understanding of commerce subjects.

Commerce profs are probably the most expensive on campus, hence the higher cost of commerce degrees.

I don't understand people who complain about the way other schools do things... it's not like anybody walked into this situation and was blindsided. Did you not compare programs before you chose Mac? You'll be more well-rounded when you leave here, and if nothing else it will be an academically enriching experience.

As someone who is actively interviewing for positions right now, I can tell you that the average employer is very interested in what sets you apart. Everybody has a degree these days, and most people applying for the jobs you're applying for will have the same credentials you do. That's where electives, volunteer work, etc come into play.

Originally Posted by Kudos

Commerce profs are probably the most expensive on campus, hence the higher cost of commerce degrees.

As someone who is actively interviewing for positions right now, I can tell you that the average employer is very interested in what sets you apart. Everybody has a degree these days, and most people applying for the jobs you're applying for will have the same credentials you do. That's where electives, volunteer work, etc come into play.

1) Commerce profs are indeed more expensive as it takes more money to pull professionals from the private sector. However, overall costs should be much less than other faculties yet we pay over 9000 per year. We do not use expensive equipment and great amounts of overhead costs and direct material costs. Even with that, there are much less commerce profs than other faculties. Furthering cross subsidization, extracting wealth from commerce students.

2)Big firms do look for differentiated students, but they look for extra curricular activities. If you join case competitions and win it, become executives of business clubs and related things, that will appeal to recruiters. I do not think taking 6 courses in environmental sciences or social psychology will wow the recruiter into thinking your electives are useful. Recruiters don't even look at your electives. If you ever applied to big firms they will ask you to separate your Core GPA and Cumulative GPA. Even when you volunteer, you have to do things that are translatable. I think it is not worth putting on a resume you volunteered 4 years at a youth camp looking after children, when the job you are applying for is looking for summer audit interns. They will be interested if you have been volunteering at a tax clinic.

3)To the person above saying engineers are hired by financial firms, that is correct and for IT positions but I don't think engineers will work as financial analysts unless they get MBA.

Not necessarily, I have a friend that works at a pretty major firm in Toronto in a marketing position. She's pretty sure she was hired over her peers from Ivey because she spent her university years volunteering with Special Olympic swimming, and this struck a chord with the interviewer. The company itself places a huge emphasis on volunteerism and engagement with the community.

From what I hear from other friends, I don't think this is all that uncommon especially in the age of corporate social responsibility.

Then she had very good translatable experience, the firm itself valued that type of experience. Do you think a big 4 accounting firm would hire her over an executive at an accounting club? Or a CFO of a national competition? Well that is a question of personality, but that is a different question. But I'm sure that experience was the tie breaker over the IVEY student, not her random course in environmental sciences or social biology.