Originally Posted by Eric_G

I think the biggest problem is that people didn't know they were making that much-- what does it say about the group that's supposed to be representing us as students, if we don't know things like this? I think a lot of people assumed it was a volunteer position and that's problematic when there's a large salary attached to the position-- a salary that's coming out of our own pockets. I also it highlights a bigger issue when the Vice Presidents are making a similar salary yet we have absolutely zero say on who it is our VPs are.

^ that.
I've heard the argument time and time again that we don't have a say in choosing the VPs because the SRA members 'know them better'. It's hard for me to believe that it is less of a popularity contest within the actual SRA during voting but that may just be me. I dunno. I was aware that the President made a substantial salary and I was okay with that but I'm not okay with how high it is. The benefits do make sense though.
I'm definitely not okay with how high the VP salaries are. Making around $19/hour is a bit insane. I personally think that $13 or $14 would be more adequate. The amount the VPs and the President (before benefits) were making a few years ago which I believe was around $25,000 seemed far more fair.

Originally Posted by Eric_G

I think the biggest problem is that people didn't know they were making that much-- what does it say about the group that's supposed to be representing us as students, if we don't know things like this? I think a lot of people assumed it was a volunteer position and that's problematic when there's a large salary attached to the position-- a salary that's coming out of our own pockets..

I think your biggest problem is assuming we should know everything. Its stupid to expect that a student should know everything about their governing body. The same with assumptions, if it was a full time job for a year (11 months), I would expect them to get paid at least a living wage, with enough to compensate for school debt to be paid while they work. Assuming everyone has enough money to volunteer a year away severely limits the people who would be able to represent the student body.

Originally Posted by sarahsullz

^ that.
I've heard the argument time and time again that we don't have a say in choosing the VPs because the SRA members 'know them better'. It's hard for me to believe that it is less of a popularity contest within the actual SRA during voting but that may just be me. I dunno. I was aware that the President made a substantial salary and I was okay with that but I'm not okay with how high it is. The benefits do make sense though.
I'm definitely not okay with how high the VP salaries are. Making around $19/hour is a bit insane. I personally think that $13 or $14 would be more adequate. The amount the VPs and the President (before benefits) were making a few years ago which I believe was around $25,000 seemed far more fair.

I'm just wondering, why do you define that as fair? If I were to get a job as a general laborer for 15$, am I being over paid? How about if you were the head of an organization that employs over 36 full time, and 200 part time? What if that included many small business units? Would that be over paid?

I don't understand how people would think that these positions are volunteer positions. They are full-time jobs. Let me say that again. They are full-time jobs. Not to mention that the Board of Directors (BoD, which includes the President and the three VPs) are essentially the face of our organization and manage the organization on a day-to-day basis. Do you really expect someone to work 9-5, 5 days a week, and not get paid? Aside from General Assembly, the SRA is the highest governing body of the MSU, but SRA members do not spend 8 hours a day managing part-time and full-time staff, planning Welcome Week, planning the budget, preparing financial reports, managing our business units, and lobbying the university administration and provincial/federal governments on your behalf. I say this having spent a year on the SRA.

The other thing is students having "absolutely no say" in choosing the VPs. It's true that VP elections are not open to MSU members, but SRA members vote for the VPs, and the MSU members choose their SRA members. Furthermore, MSU members are always welcome to attend SRA meetings - including the meeting where we elect the VPs - and voice their opinions. We as SRA members should be talking to our constituents and getting their feedback so that when we vote for the VPs, we're making a decision based on the interests of our constituents and the organization as a whole. If you as an SRA member aren't talking to your constituents, then you aren't doing your job.

Originally Posted by TheCrucible

I don't understand how people would think that these positions are volunteer positions. They are full-time jobs. Let me say that again. They are full-time jobs. Not to mention that the Board of Directors (BoD, which includes the President and the three VPs) are essentially the face of our organization and manage the organization on a day-to-day basis. Do you really expect someone to work 9-5, 5 days a week, and not get paid? Aside from General Assembly, the SRA is the highest governing body of the MSU, but SRA members do not spend 8 hours a day managing part-time and full-time staff, planning Welcome Week, planning the budget, preparing financial reports, and lobbying provincial and federal governments on your behalf. I say this having spent a year on the SRA.

Maybe the President and the VPs shouldn't be getting paid as much as they are, but they should be getting paid something.

The other thing is students having "absolutely no say" in choosing the VPs. It's true that VP elections are not open to MSU members, but SRA members vote for the VPs, and the MSU members choose their SRA members. Furthermore, MSU members are always welcome to attend SRA meetings - including the meeting where we elect the VPs - and voice their opinions. We as SRA members should be talking to our constituents and getting their feedback so that when we vote for the VPs, we're making a decision based on the interests of our constituents and the organization as a whole. If you as an SRA member aren't talking to your constituents, then you aren't doing your job.

This has summed up exactly how I feel on this issue. I've just been too lazy to type that all out though. I agree with all of your points (obviously), but I think the problem with people voicing their opinions through their SRA member(s) is because we're lazy, at least I am. I rather just go online and vote for the respective VPs as we voted online for the President because that requires minimal effort on my parts and my voice also gets heard in a sense.

1. $40,000/year to be a CEO of a multi-million dollar organization isn't a lot...

2. $32,000/year to be one of a handful of Executives for that organization is ALSO not a lot...

3. If people don't know about this stuff, it's because (if I have learned ANYTHING about students and politics in the last 4 years of being involved), it's that you can literally SMEAR SH!T IN THEIR FACE, and the majority of students won't even ask "Wait, what's that smell?" While that wouldn't be a critical-thinking question in the case of poo-in-the-face, the majority of the actions and activities of most organizations and administrations on campus DO elicit critical thought from those who bother to think.

4. The obvious issue here is not what they're getting paid for, but what they are doing to get paid! Bring the attention back to that, rather than trying to reduce the pay and discouraging the executive and administration. You're not as likely to see action from someone that you just took money from, as you are if you tell them "You need to do this"

POST COMMENT DISCLAIMER: I have never been a fan of the MSU and its actions, except for the one President who actually came to Faculty Society meetings regularly and stayed up-to-date... That was a year I felt like the President was doing their fair share... So this message of support for the Executive is not from a die-hard supporter.

Originally Posted by RyanC

Any job is a 'responsibility they willingly signed up for'. Being salaried (i.e. it being a job) also adds the extra incentive, need for oversight, and need to actually do something. Would you work harder or less hard being paid vs not?

I don't particularly understand the need for wages in excess of $32k but I'm not going to jump all over the issue and say its undeserved. If anything, regular SRA members are more likely to be flaky and be 'using it for their resume', since there is 'less' time-commitment and 'responsibility', I would say. There are certainly other members of the MSU who deserve some compensation, but work for free.



Is vice and presidential work really an 'extra-curricular'?

Seeing as the student government members signed up for this job due to a supposed passion to improve the school, i would hope that money shouldnt be a factor in how hard they are willing to work. Maybe thats how you want your MSU to run...

Originally Posted by sarahsullz

^ that.
I've heard the argument time and time again that we don't have a say in choosing the VPs because the SRA members 'know them better'. It's hard for me to believe that it is less of a popularity contest within the actual SRA during voting but that may just be me.

It's not that SRA members "know them better," but rather SRA members (especially ones who are re-elected) tend to know the internal structure of the MSU and how the organization works better than the average MSU member. If MSU members don't know what the VPs do (which is clearly evident from this thread...) and if they don't know how the MSU functions, letting them directly elect the VPs could be disastrous. Of course, that's not to say that SRA members haven't ever elected poor VPs, but it's less likely because they tend to have a better understanding of what makes a good VP.

Originally Posted by Chris23

Seeing as the student government members signed up for this job due to a supposed passion to improve the school, i would hope that money shouldnt be a factor in how hard they are willing to work. Maybe thats how you want your MSU to run...

That's a bold vision for this world, but as long as we live in the society that we have created, the vast majority of people will work proportionally to the amount of money they make. This is why governments (actual ones...) have tiers of pay which certain positions are assigned to: So when a call goes out for applications to a certain position that requires a certain skill/education level, then that person might actually be enticed to leave their current position/opportunity where they make a proportional amount, to take on the new job.

Facts.

For a related real-life example of this pay-grade structure and an existing current controversy, look into the Parliamentary Budget Officer position and its salary.

Originally Posted by mike_302

4. The obvious issue here is not what they're getting paid for, but what they are doing to get paid! Bring the attention back to that,

I agree. And while I don't agree with the people stating that a $40,000 salary with benefits isn't all that much (look at the pay of some other student union presidents-- a great deal have it at well under $20,000 source), here's a direct quote from my platform:

"...I don't think that's good enough, and I think, as a student government, that we need to do a lot more to educate people on how much we're paying our executive members, and furthermore look at trying to introduce a system that ensures that salary is being properly earned. I feel this sort of transparency is something we owe to our fellow students, and right now the MSU is clearly not providing it.
As students, that's not chump change. That's a significant salary, and it's a salary that is coming out of our own pockets."

Finally as a point of clarification: when I say we don't elect VPs, I am speaking as a student. We don't get a direct say on positions within our Student Union that are hugely influential, and I think that's a problem. There was recently an article in the Silhouette that expresses these sentiments quite well and I think it's well worth a read: http://www.thesil.ca/editorial-need-...eform-persists

The assumption keeps being made this this is a real life job. Im sorry but yes they signed up for a position that entails a great deal of work, but i dont think that a student organization should be receiving salaries of this degree, as if it is a legitimate full-time, monday to friday, 9-5 job.
If they earn money, we should be paying every student athlete for attending practices for the "work" that they put in. We should pay every president of every club on campus for the "work" that they put in. It just doesnt make sense to me that a student run organization has positions that are treated as full time employment like this

Originally Posted by Chris23

The assumption keeps being made this this is a real life job. Im sorry but yes they signed up for a position that entails a great deal of work, but i dont think that a student organization should be receiving salaries of this degree, as if it is a legitimate full-time, monday to friday, 9-5 job.
If they earn money, we should be paying every student athlete for attending practices for the "work" that they put in. We should pay every president of every club on campus for the "work" that they put in. It just doesnt make sense to me that a student run organization has positions that are treated as full time employment like this

A president of an MSU-club =/= the president of the MSU. You seem to think that being the president of the MSU is simply an extracurricular activity. There's a reason that the President and the VPs aren't allowed to take more than 3 units of courses per term, whereas your everyday club president is usually a full-time student.

Yes, these are REAL full-time positions...the MSU is not just a student-run organization, it's a corporation. These are real full-time jobs.

Originally Posted by Chris23

as if it is a legitimate full-time, monday to friday, 9-5 job.

Their position is not what's quoted that how exactly?

Originally Posted by TheCrucible

A president of an MSU-club =/= the president of the MSU. You seem to think that being the president of the MSU is simply an extracurricular activity. There's a reason that the President and the VPs aren't allowed to take more than 3 units of courses per term, whereas your everyday club president is usually a full-time student.

Yes, these are REAL full-time positions...the MSU is not just a student-run organization, it's a corporation. These are real full-time jobs.

To quote Eric I think the problem is general knowledge. As a student In 4th year I had no idea:
-The pres was paid a fair amount
-The VP's (unelected) were paid roughly the same amount
-That they work full time (35+hours per week)
-That they are unable to take more than 3 units per term, essentially guaranteeing they have "lost a year" at mac

In a previous post I said that max $25/hour would be a fairly good wage someone for someone with no real qualifications other than a good campaign. If the president truly works full time (in which case I would like to know more about what they actually do) then they deserve their wage or more. $20-$25/hour is for example extremely common wage for engineering coop students, even for first years at a decent company. And yes a Coop student is a allowed to take 3 units per term as well (with permission).

Originally Posted by Chris23

The assumption keeps being made this this is a real life job. Im sorry but yes they signed up for a position that entails a great deal of work, but i dont think that a student organization should be receiving salaries of this degree, as if it is a legitimate full-time, monday to friday, 9-5 job.
If they earn money, we should be paying every student athlete for attending practices for the "work" that they put in. We should pay every president of every club on campus for the "work" that they put in. It just doesnt make sense to me that a student run organization has positions that are treated as full time employment like this

This kind of misinformation is exactly what I meant by my previous comment on the lack of critical thought... You pay HUNDREDS of dollars each year to the MSU, as do tens of thousands of other students, and no one ever wondered where that went to? I knew in my first year that the Presidential job was full-time, paid; I knew this because I thought "I just paid a LOT of money. Where did it go to?". I also found out about a lot of the services that the MSU funds, and the process to get funding FROM them.

SO, to respond to this as Gabriel has: THIS IS A REAL LIFE JOB. You temporarily leave school, you take up an office for at least 40 hours a week, you manage teams, offices, portfolios, and executive... You must be well aware of that which you are managing. And you do that daily.

For the past several years (this one especially), I've found this lack of critical thought ASTONISHING. Everyone complains about tuition, but no one knows where their tuition is GOING, despite the fact that all the numbers are easily available (the first breakdown is in your financial statements... the next are easily available within the organizations' budgets). Lazy? That's not an excuse for not finding the answer to an important question.

And this IS the equivalent to poo-shoved-in-the-face: That $4,000-$10,000 tuition you pay every year doesn't go unnoticed by a single one of you. Yet only the tiniest fraction ever asked "Why this much?"

"Critical thought" is a long-endangered species.