Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Poor way to lend credence to your poor idea. This is not HS, as you know. Exercise some prudence to answer this question, "Which is more likely? Two good grades, and one poor one. Or, two poor grades, then an exceptional one?"

This not being high school really has nothing to do with it.

I was simply using that as an example to say that some education systems are adopting that method, and it's not fair. If it's not fair in high school then why is it suddenly fair in university?

What you're suggesting is essentially a method of grade inflation...it's already a huge problem in high schools. Bringing those sorts of things to universities will only further devalue your degree.

And it's entirely possible to get two poor grades and an exceptional one. You said "and then an exceptional one", which implies that the exceptional one came after the two poor ones. That is less likely, though still far from impossible. What is entirely possible and happens very frequently, is for people to do well near the beginning of the course (for the first midterm) and then poorly the rest of the term, either because they get busy and pay less attention to the course, the course material gets harder, or any number of other reasons. They still earned the good grade on the first midterm, and the idea of dropping it is absurd.

Anyways, I think your idea is "poor" and I haven't seen you make a good argument as to why it should be allowed. You've only shot down other people's arguments, again, without making a good one of your own.

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Lol, which prestigious grad school requires an 8.5 GPA?

Hee, hee, just an example. I know 8.5 is Mac neurosci...
And the "friends" were in life sci, FYI. No need for Health Sci mania to start again....

http://cdn.memegenerator.net /insta...x/28108925.jpg

And if that doesn't persuade you...

http://media-cache-ec2.pinterest.com... PvqL34_b.jpg

Unless stated in the course outline, I doubt the prof will drop 1/3 of your grade just because it was much lower compared to your other grades. It would be unfair to the rest of the class and it would even be unfair for the prof if this were to happen, since the other students would find a way to abuse the system.

Yeah getting a low mark sucks, but just make up for it through your other/future courses. A slight drop in one course won't kill you!

No, I wouldn't drop the mark unless the student could document extenuating circumstances (they received a life changing diagnosis, a family member passed away, they were in an accident, etc).

I have plenty of aberrations in my university record, all for legitimate reasons. But even though it would be nice to strike them off, I don't want to. Those are moments for true growth and learning. We have a choice between taking the easy route and taking the formative one and the present attitude toward education (on a larger scale, not simply one university or another) is that of entitlement and inflation. The students who grow from their crappy grades and unfortunate experiences are the ones you want in your hospitals, businesses and workforce. Magicking the blemishes away doesn't help the student, nor the workplaces they will soon enter.

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Your grade scheme is three tests, all worth 1/3 of your total mark. You have a great student who participate in class, never says anything redundant.

His test scores are: 92, 89, 67. You know that 67 is an aberration, would you still include it in the total grade calculation? Drop it? Weight the grades a different way?

Just curious.

I would still include it. If the marking scheme says each test is worth 1/3 of the mark, then that's what it is. It wouldn't be fair of the prof to change the marking scheme to accommodate this student.

The student may have gotten a 67 because content got harder, he was happy with his first two test marks, or a variety of other reasons. It wouldn't be fair to other students to change the marking scheme near the end.

No. That's unfair to the other students. Unless there is a VERY good reason (e.g. medical reasons), then why should they get a free pass? What if this student just doesn't get the material on the 3rd test compared to the first two? What if they were caught up in midterm/finals and just didn't have time to study as much?

And I'm not trying to start a fight here, but why are you even asking this on here? Clearly you already have an opinion and you are not likely to be swayed. Your replies do not address the points raised. Did you honestly think the point of Zebedee's post was that "prestigous grad schools have an 8.5 GPA cutoff"? And why is the scenario of doing really well on the first test and then slacking for the next two so "unrealistic"?

Instead of throwing insults ("that's a stupid retort" or "your poor idea") and generally being condescending ("good try, though"), why don't you actually respond to the ideas and have a proper debate?

I'd also like to add that if I dropped the mark for the student, I would write an equally challenging test of the same length that they would have to write to replace the previous mark

Originally Posted by Quiver

No. That's unfair to the other students. Unless there is a VERY good reason (e.g. medical reasons), then why should they get a free pass? What if this student just doesn't get the material on the 3rd test compared to the first two? What if they were caught up in midterm/finals and just didn't have time to study as much?

And I'm not trying to start a fight here, but why are you even asking this on here? Clearly you already have an opinion and you are not likely to be swayed. Your replies do not address the points raised. Did you honestly think the point of Zebedee's post was that "prestigous grad schools have an 8.5 GPA cutoff"? And why is the scenario of doing really well on the first test and then slacking for the next two so "unrealistic"?

Instead of throwing insults ("that's a stupid retort" or "your poor idea") and generally being condescending ("good try, though"), why don't you actually respond to the ideas and have a proper debate?

Lol, info not understand why you guys are attacking me. I aske a dispassionate question, meaning, this has not happened to me; it would never.

I'm not adding insight because I have nothing to say, it is more pleasurable o poke holes in your weak premises.

Regardless of performance on the three tests, I would include all three.

This can't be a serious question. There are no free passes, and should never be. If you did bad on a test, then you get a bad mark. It's that simple. If you weren't ready for it and you had a feeling you'd do bad, you should've deferred it. Obtaining a university degree comes with responsibilities.

Dropping the mark wouldn't be fair to other students. I realized in university that hard work and determination gets you good grades. No one cares if you don't say anything or if you participate a lot. Don't get me wrong, it's good to participate and be quiet in class, but that will not get you any extra marks.

If i was a professor and i saw a huge improvement in the grades of a particular student i might consider some changes. For example, if a student got a 60% in the first test and then got an 87% in the second test i might make the 2nd midterm worth more than the first. Also, it would help a lot if the student took the initiative and came and talked to me about it. In that case, i would tell the student that if you get a much higher grade in the 2nd midterm i would consider an alternative weighting scheme for you and make your second midterm worth more than the first.
I would only drop a mark if there was significant changes in the grades. If a student got a 23% in the first test and then an 85% in the 2nd test, i would probably drop the first mark.

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Poor way to lend credence to your poor idea. This is not HS, as you know. Exercise some prudence to answer this question, "Which is more likely? Two good grades, and one poor one. Or, two poor grades, then an exceptional one?"

This happened to me all the time in my first two years, in nearly every course I took. I entered a course with no idea what to expect in terms of the assessment pieces, tanked one or two, learned my lesson, refined my strategy and aced the final...never the opposite. So anecdotal evidence suggests 2 poor grades and one exceptional one are more likely?

Unfortunately, it rarely worked in my favour. By the third year of course, I'd picked a single field to focus on and polished off my strategy enough such that I didn't need to tank tests to figure them out.


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Imho people are thinking about this issue too narrowly, particularly when making blanket statements like "This isn't highschool." First of all, universities have more freedom to adjust marks given that they are privately funded institutions, do not have a Ministry of Education barking over their shoulder every second of the day, and don't have to teach a certain curriculum. (For instance, did you know bonus marks, in Ontario highschools, are against the law? They violate something called the Ontario Growing Success document).

If a professor finds merit in a student they are perfectly free and able to give them a 12 for no reason...not saying this ever happens, but I have seen students having test grades dropped because of initiative or other factors. The prof/TA/Department use professional judgement to make such a decision. They do not have to produce documents supporting the student's success when they give their 12 to the registrar's office, unlike highschool teachers. Such matters are handled internally, there is no board standard, besides McMaster's reputation.

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Secondly, when I say people are thinking too narrowly, what I mean is it tends to depend on your position in the class distribution. I once scored 13% (answered ~1/8 questions correctly) on my final exam in a graduate level course and finished with an A+. This is because I was the only person (of 4 students) to answer a question correctly, and the others wound up with some form of A as well.

In such a circumstance, a professor analyzes the course content, assessment piece and so forth, to see whether or not it was reasonable. Turns out my test was not, within the specified parameters.

So to the original poster:

91, and 89, do I drop the 63? Depends on if the rest of the class got 80s, or 50s on that third test.

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Lol, info not understand why you guys are attacking me. I aske a dispassionate question, meaning, this has not happened to me; it would never.

I'm not adding insight because I have nothing to say, it is more pleasurable o poke holes in your weak premises.

You completely missed my point. When did I claim that it happened to you?

Perhaps the premises aren't so weak and you just aren't understanding them? Let me be more clear: you are NOT "poking holes" in the premises. You are ignoring the premise. All you do is call it stupid without any logical base to back yourself up.

Let's have a look.

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

That is a stupid retort. That hypothetical scenario is hyperbole, not realistic at all. Good try, though.

What part of being a hyperbole makes it "stupid"? The hyperbole serves to make a point. Hint: whether or not it is completely realistic isn't the point. Would you feel better if they said an 80 and then two 65s? You didn't even answer her question.

You also conveniently ignored it when she asked WHY it wasn't realistic. She also said that she knows people who have gotten those marks before, so I guess it IS fairly realistic. But it's all ignored. Good try, though.

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Lol, which prestigious grad school requires an 8.5 GPA?

Really? Okay, fine. Let's change it to "Maybe they were slacking and realized that they'd need to get their crap together in order to make some arbitrary grad school GPA cutoff." Is that better? Can you actually address the scenario now? (For the record, a lot of grad schools have around a 70-75ish cut off so it's not completely "unrealistic" either.)

Originally Posted by L_Blankfein

Poor way to lend credence to your poor idea. This is not HS, as you know. Exercise some prudence to answer this question, "Which is more likely? Two good grades, and one poor one. Or, two poor grades, then an exceptional one?"

Starfish already replied this (which you conveniently ignored again). And did you even fully read the post? It's not even Starfish's idea, just something the old HS does. By the way, Starfish DID "exercise some prudence" to your question ... it was the VERY FIRST LINE of the reply.

Dude, you're not "poking holes" in anything. You're playing with straw men here, and generally missing the point of everyone's replies.

tl;dr - I would really suggest you find a hobby or something, though, if you really need to post a question on the forum that you have "nothing to say" about just so you could have the opportunity to "poke holes in the weak premises" of people who honestly giving their opinion because you asked ... just because it's "pleasurable".

it is not uncommon for people to do worse on the first test, and then do better.

People sometimes need to get used to the way the professor makes tests.

Or they thought the course was easy, but turned out harder so they started working more.

Just because someone makes a point against your argument, it doesn't mean it is wrong.

and on the topic: why should they drop the bad mark? If the student did bad on the test; tough luck. Like you said this is university, not high school anymore. There are consequences for ones actions; just because the student did good before, it doesn't mean they should get treated differently. There had to be some reason they did bad, so it is their responsibility.

I'm sure some professors would make an acception with the weighting of the tests if you are usually a consistent student and ask politely. But if the they refuse, there is nothing you can really do because you were given a syllabus with the breakdown at day 1.