Originally Posted by Taunton

Religious people say "God DOES exist" and they say it with certainty, which is wrong, because they don't know that.

Taunton... that is a little ignorant :p... (hope you're not offended...), but it is. You are arguing against people who make claims that YOU yourself have no evidence for. And then, out of nowhere and based on nothing except what you think, you say that they don't ACTUALLY believe what they believe and they don't ACTUALLY know what they're talking about - you're saying that they "don't know that", believe me, we know that .

Originally Posted by Taunton

Note: I've never stated "god DOESN'T exist". I've always been open to the possibility, however, there's no reason to believe in a god right now, so I don't.

okay. So if there was reasons, would you?

Originally Posted by Taunton

It's really no different than leprechauns, or unicorns or Bigfoot. There's no reason to believe they exist, however I'd accept that they do if it could be proven. No proof? No god. End of story.

okay

PS: Saying that you can't prove god exists is a cop-out. If it matters that much to people, and if people are SO convinced, they should be able to provide proof.[/quote]
And... they are... which is why people are changing their beliefs... no one is born believing in God... everyone who believes in God started out where you are. People are just against the idea of talking about God or the evidence for God, aren't you?

Taunton, I'm sorry if you've had people straight up come at you and try to "convert" you. I know that would anger me too, so if that's where you're coming from then I sorta sympathize with that. The chalking though, which you've equated to be the same thing,...is actually not. It's advertising for an event where people who are interested in hearing about whether its possible to Know God Personally will do just that (In HSC 1A1; Fri Mar 12; 6:15pm).

I respect that you agree that you can't provide proof for the inexistence of God, essentially turning the tables on a theist like me to provide proof for my conviction of God's existence & presence. And to be honest, I just look around me. And the things I see, the way I interpret them lead me to the strong belief that there is a God. You and I could experience the same life-changing event and it would just go on to solidify your conviction that God does not exist (or if he does, he's a jerk) and it would make me more thankful to Him and draw me closer.

The reason people of faith will bring up the topic and not you is because they've found something great and want to share it. I understand many people are like, "No, I don't care - shut up" -- and that's fine, If I knew you personally I wouldn't bring it up again after the first time you tell me to shut up. Like drez99 was saying a few pages ago, University just isn't the "Godless environment" we all fancy it to be. There are people wrestling with the question allllll the time, and for them I think its good that they know that other people have been (and still are) on that search - so lets link up and talk about 'em.
_____________________ _____________________ ______

Here's a quote that kinda sums up why I disagree with a worldview that says God doesn't exist:

"If there is no God, then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. If this is true then the difference between your thoughts and mine correspond to the difference between shaking up a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of Dr. Pepper. You simply fizz atheistically and I fizz theistically. This means that you do not hold to atheism because it is true, but rather because of a series of chemical reactions… … Morality, tragedy, and sorrow are equally evanescent. They are all empty sensations created by the chemical reactions of the brain, in turn created by too much pizza the night before. If there is no God, then all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water. This means that we have no reason for assigning truth and falsity to the chemical fizz we call reasoning or right and wrong to the irrational reaction we call morality. If no God, mankind is a set of bi-pedal carbon units of mostly water. And nothing else."
Douglas Wilson

And at the end of the day, I DO see immutable truth and right & wrong etc...

You acknowledge and accept the idea of right and wrong, so god exists?

****, why am I still reading this shit. It's like a horrible car accident, except I'm wishing that people don't come out alive.

And drez, what the **** does taunton being part of the SRA have to do with anything? As Kathy said (IIRC), you are extremely condescending. But I like how you try and shadow it.

I just look around me. And the things I see, the way I interpret them lead me to the strong belief that there is a God.

The way YOU personally INTERPRET things is why you believe in god. Not that there IS a god.

The reason people of faith will bring up the topic and not you is because they've found something great

That's nice. You know what I think is great? Sex, orgasms, vibrators, weed, cocaine, mushrooms, and ecstasy, photoshop, guitar, animals, premarital sex, and alcohol (just to name a few). Doesn't mean I need to "advertise" it or even better, go around to people's homes and preach to them about how awesome all this shit is.

1) I recently read "The Language of God" by Francis Collins. He makes a lot of good points and my own position on reconciling religion and science is similar in some ways. Either way its an interesting book.

2)lawleypop: If someone is religious and thinks you need to share their religion to have eternal life wouldn't it be a kinda mean spirited of them to not try and let you know that (in their opinion) you could have eternal life?

Originally Posted by arathbon

1) I recently read "The Language of God" by Francis Collins. He makes a lot of good points and my own position on reconciling religion and science is similar in some ways. Either way its an interesting book.

2)lawleypop: If someone is religious and thinks you need to share their religion to have eternal life wouldn't it be a kinda mean spirited of them to not try and let you know that (in their opinion) you could have eternal life?

Who says I want an eternal life? Maybe I have a belief that the whole thought of death and no longer being in any physical, spiritual, or emotional way is what makes living so much more invaluable. But I guess since mine isn't written in a book...

If someone had TANGIBLE proof that screwing a dead goat would send me into fiery abyss upon death, then PLEASE, let me know. I feel like it could be beneficial. And, because CLEARLY I'M WRONG. Till then...

If you believe in some sort of religion, that's fine. Just stop acting like it's fact.

Edit: Side note: do I believe in the tooth fairy because I still don't understand how money managed to get underneath my pillow without me waking up EVERY SINGLE TIME? No.

Now I need to know what RAWDU means. Someone crossed out a bunch of the KGP crap and wrote RAWDU. It looks even tackier now but I'm curious as to its meaning.

Originally Posted by Taunton

the difference is that nobody says "there ARE aliens on other planets. They DEFINITELY exist". Instead, the numbers show that it is probable that life exists elsewhere, and people say "it is likely".

Religious people say "God DOES exist" and they say it with certainty, which is wrong, because they don't know that.

Note: I've never stated "god DOESN'T exist". I've always been open to the possibility, however, there's no reason to believe in a god right now, so I don't.

It's really no different than leprechauns, or unicorns or Bigfoot. There's no reason to believe they exist, however I'd accept that they do if it could be proven. No proof? No god. End of story.

PS: Saying that you can't prove god exists is a cop-out. If it matters that much to people, and if people are SO convinced, they should be able to provide proof.

I'm sorry but it is a matter of faith for those who believe and not a matter of evidence.

Anyway, I'll be sure to get back to you if I find scientific proof that God exists. That is, if it's okay with you.

btw, your alien point is already nullified by my point that God cannot be quantified.

And like it was widely believed once that atoms were the smallest (insert a noun i can't remember) and there was no evidence of smaller thing....same can be said for God.

If you can't prove it, doesn't mean it isn't there. (but same with the counter argument that if you can't disprove it, doesn't mean it's there)...all comes down to whether you want to believe or not.

Here's something from the religious point of view:
If everyone had scientific evidence that God existed and everyone believed, everyone would go to a place called Heaven, and what would become of Hell? lol....religious arguments don't go like that.

That is why it's called faith and not a scientific discovery.

Originally Posted by drez99

not really true... people budge all the time...

hahahaha...yes, they do :p but it's not right to force everyone to budge


@Afro: argument is flawed because we believe what we are brought up to believe. I would argue that if a family was left on an island (with resources) and they taught the opposite to their children. Then robbing, lying, cheating, or even incest would not be wrong for them.

@arathbon: LOL, you're telling people to read a whole book to believe on something they don't want to believe? bravo :p

@lawleypop: Believers will believe God exists if their belief doesn't fade away. Sometimes people just want to believe that there is Someone. I respect their view, as well as anyone else's, all of them are entitled to believe what they want.

This thread:

Two Teams:
1. God believers
2. Non-believers

Argument:
1. God exists
2. God doesn't exist because there's no scientific proof

Pages: 16

Argument after 16 pages:
1. God exists
2. God doesn't exist because there's no scientific proof

The REAL question is:
Where the frikkin heck is this thread even going? Is it even going to any conclusion? LOL

Originally Posted by lawleypop

You acknowledge and accept the idea of right and wrong, so god exists?

****, why am I still reading this shit. It's like a horrible car accident, except I'm wishing that people don't come out alive.

And drez, what the **** does taunton being part of the SRA have to do with anything? As Kathy said (IIRC), you are extremely condescending. But I like how you try and shadow it.



The way YOU personally INTERPRET things is why you believe in god. Not that there IS a god.



That's nice. You know what I think is great? Sex, orgasms, vibrators, weed, cocaine, mushrooms, and ecstasy, photoshop, guitar, animals, premarital sex, and alcohol (just to name a few). Doesn't mean I need to "advertise" it or even better, go around to people's homes and preach to them about how awesome all this shit is.

Good point. Let me go further like this, if tomorrow I wake up and decide that I don't subscribe to this worldview anymore, would it change whether or not its true? No it wouldn't. That's what I meant about it being immutable.

All those things you think are great likely haven't changed you in a profound way. I bet if they have you would care about them a LOT more. You can probably delineate how much they matter to you now by how much they've changed you. People find something their passionate about and it goes on to feature majorly in all parts of their lives. Whereas, knowing God changed me.

And about right/wrong, I mean there's a set definition. It doesn't waver from differing cultures and civilizations. How did it get there? You can't call a crooked line crooked, without first knowing what a straight line looks like. It's that question that I looked deeper into that led me to knowing God. At the very bottom of things, you and I probably agree on what we define as wrong/evil - we just differ on which ones are excusable.

There is a certain constancy in the world. A high school physics laws will show you that the cosmos (or specifically, our portion of it) have a physical order. There's also a moral order - do you agree?

If you actually wanna discuss this further, I'm down to do that. But, more than anybody else, your posts are just getting more and more caustic. I mean, no one's forcing you to come back - so why not be more civilized about it? When the other poster accused drez99 of being condescending, she didn't go on to cuss him out for it. Relax.

Originally Posted by Afzal

hahahaha...yes, they do :p but it's not right to force everyone to budge

Lol but who's being forced? It's a discussion that's getting some people heated, which is fine b/c most conversations about God end up that way anyway.

Originally Posted by Afzal

@Afro: argument is flawed because we believe what we are brought up to believe. I would argue that if a family was left on an island (with resources) and they taught the opposite to their children. Then robbing, lying, cheating, or even incest would not be wrong for them.

True enough. But my argument still stands b/c I'm not so much interested in each person's widely varying moral compass. I'm asking about the reference point. Why is it universal? How did it get there? Do people have explanations different than the one I have? If so, please lay it on me.

Originally Posted by Afzal

The REAL question is:
Where the frikkin heck is this thread even going? Is it even going to any conclusion? LOL

Three letters plastered on McMaster pavements launched this. If it was something random or inane, this thread would've been lucky to see 4 pages. But b/c God was involved, everybody has something to say. And like it's been said before, it's not futile to enter a discourse where your presuppositions are being challenged. You just have to go back in it and find an answer, and if you can't - start asking some questions of your own. The thread will "conclude" when nobody cares to talk about it anymore.

Anyhoozle, midterm time - peace!

Originally Posted by AfroMaestro

Good point. Let me go further like this, if tomorrow I wake up and decide that I don't subscribe to this worldview anymore, would it change whether or not its true? No it wouldn't. That's what I meant about it being immutable.

All those things you think are great likely haven't changed you in a profound way. I bet if they have you would care about them a LOT more. You can probably delineate how much they matter to you now by how much they've changed you. People find something their passionate about and it goes on to feature majorly in all parts of their lives. Whereas, knowing God changed me.

And about right/wrong, I mean there's a set definition. It doesn't waver from differing cultures and civilizations. How did it get there? You can't call a crooked line crooked, without first knowing what a straight line looks like. It's that question that I looked deeper into that led me to knowing God. At the very bottom of things, you and I probably agree on what we define as wrong/evil - we just differ on which ones are excusable.

There is a certain constancy in the world. A high school physics laws will show you that the cosmos (or specifically, our portion of it) have a physical order. There's also a moral order - do you agree?

If you actually wanna discuss this further, I'm down to do that. But, more than anybody else, your posts are just getting more and more caustic. I mean, no one's forcing you to come back - so why not be more civilized about it? When the other poster accused drez99 of being condescending, she didn't go on to cuss him out for it. Relax.

1) I'm not sure why you think these things haven't changed my in aprofound way, or that I don't care about them, or that I'm not passionate about them. Why is it that music can't have the same effect on me that god has on you?

2) Nope, we wouldn't agree. Trust me.

3) Man made? Yes. Natural, no.
Of course, you might want to elaborate what you mean by moral order so we're on the same page.

4) Because religious crazies tend to act all righteous and preach good values when in their methods of debate, they become douchebags.

side note: cussing =/= angry. I cuss when I'm happy too!

Originally Posted by lawleypop

If someone had TANGIBLE proof that screwing a dead goat would send me into fiery abyss upon death, then PLEASE, let me know.

From a Christian perspective 'screwing a dead goat' does not send you to 'fiery abyss'.

From Page 1 and 2

Originally Posted by andrew22

lol these people claim to know god personally? How pathetic and sad. I feel sorry for people that messed up. :( so much grasping at nothing, I hope they findwhat they are looking for at least.

Originally Posted by melchizedek

Andrew22, it's very interesting that you would use the phrase "grasping at nothing". A couple years ago, I started a serious search to figure out what God is all about and why so many people believe in Him. This meant I actually started reading the Bible and reading books about the Bible because I didn't want to be like everyone else whose religious knowledge came from South Park or a first year philosophy class. I can't even describe what I found when I actually started searching wholeheartedly and without bias. I'm not going to state my current standing with God because that won't mean anything to anyone else, but let me just say that there's a book in the Bible that talks about how everything we strive for on earth is a "grasping at nothing"; it's "chasing after the wind". I know why you'd say that these Christians are guilty of "grasping at nothing", but when I examined my own life, I realized that even the things I considered most important would one day amount to nothing. Of wealth, and popularity, and love, and everything else, which of these will I take with me when I'm gone? It was all grasping at nothing.
I don't want to start a convoluted debate, but I will just personally tell anyone who's listening that if you were to enter into a search like I did, checking all preconceptions at the door and truly seeking some sort of Truth, I guarantee that your idea of what's important in life will be flipped on its head.

Originally Posted by andrew22

ugh i hate debating but since im procrastinating...
I can't imagine "do you know god personally?" is a helpful campaign.

1) People who claim to actually know god personally (which is laughable and scary) lord their superior knowledge over other christians who hear and feel nothing and try so hard to grasp at something (ie Mother Teresa) I'd imagine the xtians who don;t know god must not enjoy the hierarchy, guilt, arrogance etc something like this can create.
or
2) The rest of us think you are all batshit crazy or in denial for claiming to know god, as if you were sidewalk street preachers scaring kids.
or
3) life is meaningless, if drugs music church w/e makes you happy do it. If you can make a campaign where you imply you are special enough to know god and have the answers for how to do this, and it makes you happy to let everyone on campus know, go ahead and do it! I guess this makes christianity look terribly hedonistic, but at least I can support that.

I would have a go at someone who I believe changed the course of this thread, forgive me if I am offensive (although I try not to be):

Andrew22 and fuel thanks to melchizedek, who actually took the pain of starting this argument.

If you couldn't care much less about God, why did you even bother on pitying on those who did and expressing that in a topic which is not discussing what Knowing God Personally is or what it means, the poor OP only asked what KGP stood for

talk about shoving religion in your face and insecurities

Originally Posted by Theophilus

From a Christian perspective 'screwing a dead goat' does not send you to 'fiery abyss'.

I was just trying to think of something that some people might consider sinful and trying to think of some sort of representation of what some people might consider hell to be.

Still, the point remains.

Originally Posted by Afzal

@Afro: argument is flawed because we believe what we are brought up to believe. I would argue that if a family was left on an island (with resources) and they taught the opposite to their children. Then robbing, lying, cheating, or even incest would not be wrong for them.

If we believe what we are brought up to believe then no one has any chance at discovering truth.

Rather I think our worldview comes from at least three things.
1. Cultural influence. You are right, our upbringing has a big sway over our worldview.
2. Reason and intellect.
3. Personal experiences

(at least) All three make a worldview. (non-exhaustive list of course)
no one can say that religious people are that way simply because of 1 and non-religious people are that way all because of 2. It's always all three.

Originally Posted by Afzal

From Page 1 and 2







I would have a go at someone who I believe changed the course of this thread, forgive me if I am offensive (although I try not to be):

Andrew22 and fuel thanks to melchizedek, who actually took the pain of starting this argument.

If you couldn't care much less about God, why did you even bother on pitying on those who did and expressing that in a topic which is not discussing what Knowing God Personally is or what it means, the poor OP only asked what KGP stood for

talk about shoving religion in your face and insecurities

I'm not sure I understand your response? is it to my post? what do you meeeeeannn??? : )